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TED
TED
July 30, 2014 8:47 pm

Sooo what was happening in 2007?

Georgia?

Craig
Craig
July 30, 2014 9:29 pm

Russian long range patrols were officially resumed in 2007 apparently.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6950986.stm

as
as
July 30, 2014 9:44 pm

A lot of called to cockpit in 2013. 137 up from 85 the previous year.

Martin
Editor
July 31, 2014 6:50 am

I suppose they may well have had more interest in Typhoon back in 2007 as well so more intel to gather.

Now they just buzz us with their crap old cruisers and aircraft carriers.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
July 31, 2014 9:00 am

And at the same time we constantly patrolled the periphery of their airspace, often violated it, and the RN & USN SSN’s lurked outside Murmansk, while the NSA attached listening devices to their sub sea cables in the Sea of Othosk.

Hardly a Red Menace. They probably see NATO as more of a threat to them.

Hohum
Hohum
July 31, 2014 9:31 am

Daniele Mandelli,

Yes, yes, yes, we know, evil west, arrogant west, poor Putin blah, blah, blah. All very boring but Russia has still annexed part of Ukraine and is busy fomenting civil war in other parts of it whilst sodomising the INF treaty. Also, what do you think Russian SSN’s and SSBN’s spend their time doing?

The Russians have a problem with their long range aviation force, its small and needs modernising, they are rotating aircraft through overhaul and upgrade programmes but that temporarily depletes the fleet. They have an active long range bomber design programme (Pak-Da) but how viable that really is over the long term given their fiscal situation is questionable. The thing we should be playing attention to is not how often they give the Typhoons a chance to use their afterburners but the rapid modernisation their strategic ballistic missile forces and their conventional units.

The Other Chris
July 31, 2014 9:48 am

The new term “Ambiguous Warfare” as a Doctrine.

Swimming Trunks
Swimming Trunks
July 31, 2014 2:17 pm

“Nato is poorly prepared for an attack on a member state from Russia, an influential group of MPs has warned.

The Commons Defence Committee said the recent Ukraine conflict showed “serious deficiencies” in Nato’s preparedness to counter threats – and “radical reform” was needed.

The MPs said the risk of a conventional assault remained low – but warned over methods such as cyber-attacks and the use of irregular militias.

Nato said it would study the findings.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28577904

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
July 31, 2014 7:33 pm

Hohum

Just a tad over the top there. I do not see me saying any of that.

I commented because I felt the title of the article “The Red Menace” is hardly justified by those QRA figures of dated Bear aircraft testing out NATO while we do exactly the same back. The status quo is still intact. but I shall respond to your points.

“Yes, yes, yes, we know, evil west, arrogant west, poor Putin blah, blah, blah. All very boring but Russia has still annexed part of Ukraine and is busy fomenting civil war in other parts of it whilst sodomising the INF treaty ”

The West invades other countries, as you know, and either stands by or in the case of the US actively supports Israel persecute and occupy Palestine, conveniently ignoring UN resolutions or using Veto to block them. Biggest hypocrisy out there and the root of much of the chaos in the Middle East. Also have a read about what Parliament did to the indigenous population of Diego Garcia.

“Also, what do you think Russian SSN’s and SSBN’s spend their time doing?”

Doing exactly what ours would do! So I do not get your point.

“The Russians have a problem with their long range aviation force, its small and needs modernising, they are rotating aircraft through overhaul and upgrade programmes but that temporarily depletes the fleet. They have an active long range bomber design programme (Pak-Da) but how viable that really is over the long term given their fiscal situation is questionable. The thing we should be playing attention to is not how often they give the Typhoons a chance to use their afterburners but the rapid modernisation their strategic ballistic missile forces and their conventional units.”

I agree actually, and we must rearm accordingly in relation to any threat. I would love an increase in all aspects of defence in 2015 but I disagree with the notion that the West and Russia are going to war any time soon and that there is a “Red Menace” any more than how the Russians conceive the US and NATO, a NATO that has expanded eastwards towards Russia and a US military which surrounds Russia everywhere from Europe to their bases throughout the Middle East to their bases in Japan and Korea.
What Germany did to the Soviet Union in 1941 probably fuels the Russian paranoia but NATO on Russia’s doorstep does not help.

I do not recall any Russian Gary Powers getting shot down over the UK, but the west doing the same is OK eh. Thus Nimrod R1’s used to be found over the Baltic and RC135’s constantly flew the periphery. Do you think the Russians viewed them as a menace? Also when everyone remembers Cuba they all ignore the US missiles sitting in Turkey. Oh yes, hypocrisy is alive and well.

Oh yes, I’m sure Putin can be a Son of a B, but god help us with the likes of Ed Milliband round the corner.

Topman
Topman
July 31, 2014 9:06 pm

Rather than the answers, I think who asks or who put them up to it? If/when someone asks about this year, wonder what that might show…

TED
TED
July 31, 2014 9:10 pm

If Millibands in charge it will take a week to decipher his every order!

Ok we are as bad as each other, but we still need to seriously think about our military structure don’t we. Okay Russia is using really old aircraft to ‘harass’ us and I think we all accept that this doesn’t really make them a “red menace”. But I’m guessing this increase in QRA is matched by an increase in SSN and SSBN activity and by increases in land and naval excercises. All this pressure on NATO militaries that are all suffering cut backs with America looking to move more into the pacific.

So if Russia is stepping up and America is moving its reducing resources elsewhere, is anyone going to step up on the NATO side?

monkey
monkey
July 31, 2014 9:22 pm

At all
Come a westwards push from Russia and the US focus towards the east , the US as a NATO member would have to respond coming at Russia from its eastern territories disrupting/destroying the oil/gas/manufacturing based east of the Urals. This was the dream of the Germans in WW2 who could not reach that far to destroy the T-34 factories moved beyond the Urals.

as
as
August 1, 2014 12:03 am

Ok the bears are old but they have so sophisticated equipment on board.
So now they have a ruff guess at what frequency typhoons radar operates at they may also have a guess at what the ones on the type45 are operating at to.
So it comes down to hoping it is not known accurately enough that they can jam them.

Its when they are intercepting tu160 and su34s that you have to worry that is genuine practice.

dgos
dgos
August 1, 2014 8:10 am

Seem to recall being told the Germans had a good poke round UK just before WW2 with their airships.

Apparently did not interpret data properly – thank god!!

Hohum
Hohum
August 1, 2014 9:53 am

Daniele Mandelli,

Everything I posted was accurate, you have done nothing to refute any of it. The fact remains that Russia has annexed part of Crimea, is fomenting civil war in western ukraine and violating the INF treaty. All whilst extensively moderning it’s armed forces. The attempt to suggest moral equivalence between Russia (an openly corrupt, homophobic regime that has crushed free media at home) and the west is just naive.

Also, what is Russia’s doorstep? Ukrained, Poland and the Baltics are independent sovereign nations, they have every right to join whatever international organisations they choose, their geographic proximity to Russia is irrelevant unless you believe that these independent countries should form part of some Russian empire.

Hohum
Hohum
August 1, 2014 10:10 am

Daniele Mandelli,

Shocker, nation states are hypocrites, wow the insight is mind boggling (sarcasm). Of course they are, the key is to remember what side you are on and realise that rather like disarmament your own abandonment of hypocrisy does not mean that others will follow you. And the idea that Vladimir Putin’s openly corrupt, homophobic and expansionist regime (busily modernising its Armed Forces) is somehow morally equivalent to the west is too naive to remark upon any further. Suffice to say that those countries who have been subjected to Russian attack, either by tanks or hackers, and that have only escaped Russia’s imperial yoke within the last quarter of a century are entirely justified in seeking support from those countries who declare themselves allies through the NATO alliance.

Steve
Steve
August 1, 2014 11:14 am

Daniele Mandelli,

‘Israel persecute and occupy Palestine, conveniently ignoring UN resolutions..’

Now lets get this straight. In 1948 Arab nations surrounding Israel ignored the UN division of Palestine, as Arab popular demand in each of these nations required that all Jews be pushed into the sea. (Read the book Oh Jerusalem by neutral authors Larry Collins and Dominique La Pierre).

Despite all odds Israel holds its own, but Jerusalem, which was by UN order to be an open city, is captured by the Jordanian Arab Legion and the beautiful grand Synagogue in the Jewish Quarter is blown up and all Jews expelled.

In 1967 despite warning from Israel to stay neutral, Jordan attacks Israel at the behest of desperate Egypt and Syria. Israel responds by capturing Jerusalem and driving Jordan back to a defensible border on the Jordan River.

At that stage Israel offers to hand back much of the West Bank to the PLO if it will recognise Israel. PLO refuses as it will not recognise Israel’s right to exist and so gives up its opportunity to claim much of what it wanted.

In 1973 Egyptian and Syrian forces attack Israel on its holiest day and initially make progress – there is no demand for UN intervention. Only after much Israeli blood shed and a bold stroke to cut off Egyptian forces on the Sinai side of the Suez Canal the UN demands a cease fire.

Of course I could go on to mention Yasser Arafat’s refusal to accept Ehud Barks very generous offer in 2000 which would have given Arab control over much of the West Bank and administrative control over their Holy Sites in Jerusalem.

Hamas had been bombarding the southern portion of Israel with rockets for years – no UN complaints about that.

I should also mention that it was Roman Emperor Hadrian who renamed the Roman provinces of Judea and Samaria to Palestina and ejected the Jews so he could build a temple to Jupiter on the site of the destroyed Jewish temple. Palestina originated from the Philistine inhabitants or sea people from the Mediterranean region who had previously lived in the coastal regions of Judea – not Arabs.

Arabs spread out of South West Arabia from 630AD and as we know reached Tours in France and the gates of Vienna. Should we offer Spain and half of France, Hungary and much of Austria back to the Arabs because they once occupied those lands?

ArmChairCivvy
ArmChairCivvy
August 1, 2014 1:27 pm

They could also have had a handshake with the Huns on the Catalunian Plains, not far from Tours,just like the Americans and Russians did in Germany… Oh, shit, the timing did not match.

Gloomy will name the Arab who got to the gates of Vienna… Most the time the Persians, Selzhucks, Arabs and all the rest fought with each other – lucky for us… Let’s go back to the good old days?

monkey
monkey
August 1, 2014 2:07 pm

@Steve
You should be asking if the Christian borders could be returned to where they where prior to 630AD ,pretty much all of North Africa , Turkey and the Middle East was Christian.

Ace Rimmer
August 1, 2014 2:33 pm

Steve, the history of the Middle East ancient or modern cannot justify the wholesale isolation, persecution and military domination of the Gaza strip, you can just make excuses.

I could raise the point that Hezbollah, which did not exist before the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, is a Lebanese terrorist organization that was created in response to the number of innocent Lebanese that were killed in Israel’s clamour to wipe out the PLO. That itself demonstrates Israel’s arbitrary use of violence to settle matters, you can also look at the times Israel has purposely targeted and killed members of the UN. I’d love to hear the purpose for and justification for that.

The argument of Israel being surrounded by enemies, alone against the world ended decades ago, I’ve said it before on these pages, that Israel is a domineering, militaristic local super power in the Middle East thanks to arbitrary support from the USA.

ArmChairCivvy
ArmChairCivvy
August 1, 2014 2:38 pm

This is like a pre-school football match.
– throw another ball in the field, and at least one team will be chasing it… More likely both

I can see that TD is being trolled from all sides….? Might Ukraine.. red + menace be the reason, somewhow?

Ace Rimmer
August 1, 2014 2:46 pm

ACC, everyone has the right to hear my opinion! ;)

or as a good friend of mine is oft to say, “Opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one.”

ArmChairCivvy
ArmChairCivvy
August 1, 2014 3:18 pm

Okie- okie!

I condemn the Red Menace, especially the flavour in operation in Ukraine (why not the more playful ones over the N. Atlantic and the Baltic in nthe same go), and the fact that the Arabs came out of where they belonged (and picked up all kinds of co-riders, who eventually put them in their place ) and also the fact that UN relegated borders have suffered some obesity, sort of bulging outwards.

I would also condemn the Huns (the originals, and the”remakes”) had it not been myself who brought them in… So that might be stretching it?

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 1, 2014 4:42 pm

@Steve & Monkey – Both quite right – the Muslim World was overwhelmingly Christian in 630 AD, had been for three hundred years and was taken by force…as to the “Should we offer” question Militant Islam of every variety would say yes because the Qu’ran requires that all land that has ever been Muslim must ALWAYS be Muslim and as the given word of God cannot be negotiated in any way shape or form. As the the full list includes Spain, Sicily, Southern Italy, Greece (plus Islands) the Balkans, much of Central Europe to Vienna, much of the Ukraine, Crimea and India I am always at a loss to understand how anyone believes we can do anything with these medieval lunatics but mallet them at frequent and regular intervals. :-(

– Actually Kara Mustafa Pasha, the Grand Vizier to Sultan Mehmet IV, and they were Ottoman Turks…the Sultan also being the Caliph, the title now claimed by Caliph Ibrahim of the Islamic State…the key issue being that the “founding legend” of all Muslim States of any nationality is of a unified multi-national Caliphate that conquers the whole world, no if’s, but’s or maybes…and the idea keeps coming back, as you may have observed… :-( :-(

GNB

mike
mike
August 1, 2014 4:55 pm

@ as

“Its when they are intercepting tu160 and su34s that you have to worry that is genuine practice.”

These happen fairly regularly, though not as often as it was around the UK’s AOR, the Swedes, Danes and Norwegians regularly intercept the ‘nasties’… insofar that several Blackjacks and Backfires practised making a dash towards Sweden’s 12 mile limit with no apparent opposition, and usually entire ‘strike packages’ are observed&tracked (A50 AWACs, CAP and strike package + tankers) – Ivan has been busy, makes me wonder, we see how their air force and army exercise, their navy has been pretty quiet – apart from jollies around the UK ;)

ArmChairCivvy
ArmChairCivvy
August 1, 2014 4:58 pm

I will now retire for two weeks ,to a residential course:
– I had already booked it earlier; how to do sarcasm

You will hear from me in two weeks. If I get a good grade, I might hone my skills here (again).

Opinion3
Opinion3
August 2, 2014 6:59 am

@All

Testing our boundaries and QRA responses might be a Russian bully tactic, but it is one we should take note of. The sheer amount of corruption at the highest levels must be known by the Foreign Security agencies in the West. It has been obvious for a decade that Putin is bad news, what wasn’t so apparent was whether the Russian people trusted, believed and supported him.

The Russian’s I understand, are now much more inclined to believe his propaganda and his ‘Nashi’ movement is straight out of the Nazi ‘How To……’ text book. This is dangerous stuff. Indeed Obama has been an obviously poor President. Accepting that Nobel Peace Prize six months into his Presidency leaves me questioning which leader needs more help. Meanwhile back in the UK David Cameron needs a crash course in diplomacy / negotiation / Coercion.

They are all dangerous menaces IMHO.

as
as
August 2, 2014 5:42 pm

Nato ‘unprepared’ to repel Russian attack, MPs warn

Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news/59749/nato-unprepared-to-repel-russian-attack-mps-warn#ixzz39G1d3hFH

It took a committee to come up with that. Everyone on this site could have told them that with out any research.