HMS Duncan Arriving in Cardiff for NATO Summit

Great images from the MoD showing HMS Duncan arriving in Cardiff for the recent NATO Summit

Royal Navy Type 45 Destroyer HMS Duncan

 

HMS Duncan
HMS Duncan
HMS Duncan Royal Navy Type 45 Destroyer
HMS Duncan Royal Navy Type 45 Destroyer

 

It’s a tight squeeze as Type 45 destroyer HMS Duncan is guided through a lock into Cardiff at the start of the NATO Summit.

The UK’s newest warship HMS Duncan sailed into Cardiff to provide an awe-inspiring platform for the NATO summit.

The sixth-in-class of the Royal Navy’s state-of-the-art Type 45 destroyers arrived in the Welsh capital late afternoon yesterday, expertly sailing through incredibly narrow berthing with just 70cm manoeuvring room either side.

Having recently been deployed to support the WW1 celebrations in Glasgow and hosting the BBC for the Commonwealth Games, Duncan is once again in the public and political eye.

Now that looks like some impressive ship driving :)

The great internet ‘Type 45 Harpoon Watch’ continues without a winner

And let’s not forget, there is a swing bridge in those pictures.

 

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dgos
dgos
September 13, 2014 12:24 pm

Magic! am I seeing things are fenders only out to starboard ?

Having seen this maybe PoW could make it through the lock to Cavendish Docks at Barrow.??

WiseApe
September 13, 2014 12:52 pm

A handsome class of ship, though I’ve always thought that the bridge looks a little like an after-thought. While I’m here, another Welsh connection:

http://www.brahmand.com/news/Royal-Navys-HMS-Prince-of-Wales-assembly-begins/12829/1/13.html

Observer
Observer
September 13, 2014 1:04 pm

Nice looking ship though I really wonder why they need it for a diplomatic summit of supposed allies!

Gunboat diplomacy? pfft, meet the latest in Destroyer diplomacy! :P

Maybe it’s my perverse sense of humour but I can really see them guiding her through halfway before going: “Damn, she’s stuck!”.

I count 48 VLS cells, 1 A-gun, 2 CIWS port and starboard and 2 medium calibres L/R of radar tower. The frames at the rear of the VLS look like they could be used for supporting Harpoons if they are needed.

Phil
September 13, 2014 1:10 pm

@Observer

In addition there was 1x Dalek.

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
September 13, 2014 2:26 pm

– Do you think the one they keep in the Torchwood HQ under Cardiff dockside has signed up for the Royal Navy?

GNB

RCT(V)
RCT(V)
September 13, 2014 3:52 pm

Observer said (September 13, 2014 at 1:04 pm),
“. . . The frames at the rear of the VLS look like they could be used for supporting Harpoons if they are needed”.

“Fitted for, but without . . ” :(

Just as well that they didn’t need to get out of there in a hurry! :)

Observer
Observer
September 13, 2014 4:39 pm

I doubt it Phil, no self respecting Dalek would join the RN.

Not to mention Daleks and ship ladders don’t go too well together. :)

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
September 13, 2014 4:54 pm

@Observer – They’ve been upgraded in their latest iteration…they hover, as well as operating as attack craft in space…but you are probably right, as I don’t think current RN RoE include anything quite as unequivocal as “exterminate, exterminate…” :-)

GNB

Observer
Observer
September 13, 2014 5:28 pm

Impressive Gloomy. Now if they can only open hatches without the use of heavy firepower. :)

“Dang it, how do I bend over??!!”

WiseApe
September 13, 2014 6:04 pm

The Daleks have been through almost as many redesigns as FRES. They are also all heavy armour, no recce. Is it any wonder they have singularly failed to conquer the universe.

The Other Chris
September 13, 2014 6:36 pm

So we’re calling Scout SV the “Dalek” from now on?

Heavily armoured, 40mm Death Ray, dotted with defensive blisters, struggles with some terrain, vulnerable to tinkering men with screwdrivers?

Not a Boffin
Not a Boffin
September 13, 2014 7:02 pm

The seatings aft of the VLS farm are for GWS60. Looks like they only got through the hotwork part of the A&A before she had to go to Wales.

Ant
Ant
September 13, 2014 7:16 pm

Observer:
Re: wonder why they need it for a diplomatic summit of supposed allies

Possibly for shooting down a 9-11 type attempt on the St.Davids’ Hotel, which is a few hundred yards away and where President Obama was to have stayed?

bigdave243
bigdave243
September 13, 2014 7:51 pm

Does anyone know if the platform has the space to expand the number of VLS either in the forward part or amidships?

Observer
Observer
September 13, 2014 7:54 pm

Ant, won’t it have been easier to just put up some Rapiers like what was done during the Olympics? :)

The Other Chris
September 13, 2014 8:05 pm

@bigdave243

Not a Boffin advised a little while ago that there’s space below deck between the existing VLS and the gun for expansion, IIRC for either around 12 VLS cells or an up-gun to something like the BAE 5″ Mk45 Mod 4 slated for T26..

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
September 13, 2014 8:11 pm

@TOC – assuming about a hundred Jihadis and kit per plane I make that an ad-hoc airborne battle-group flying the black flags of Islam…that’s a cheering thought, isn’t it? :-(

GNB

Ant
Ant
September 13, 2014 8:15 pm

Observer
Easier, yes. Effective no. :)

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
September 13, 2014 8:17 pm

Duncan?

What’s next, HMS My Little Pony? The Andrew have enough problems without boats sounding like nonces.

Yes, I know all about Admirable Duncan. But they did have a choice in names.

Observer
Observer
September 13, 2014 8:19 pm

Ant, well, fair enough. Still think that is a very interesting chunk of effort for not much gain though. Not like the RAF are on strike! :P

The Other Chris
September 13, 2014 8:28 pm

Harpoon on T45 is such an oddity.

Imprecise weapon, out of service approaching. What’s the long term plan?

Fit Mk.41 or A70 cells to hold LRASM/MdCN alongside the inevitably upcoming BMD candles?

Replace the GWS 60 box launchers with Kongsberg NSM box launchers?

Keep the launchers and upgrade the missiles? Are there any updates coming to Harpoon (resurrect RGM-84E? Harpoon II?

Is SLAM-ER convertible to ship-launch? If nothing else the aesthetics of that missile make it one of the best looking around. Like a Stealth F4U Corsair… anyway I digress.

Or is this purely a case of we have the kit coming off the T23’s and the T45 hull is more than wide enough to accommodate some extra iron-work?

bigdave243
bigdave243
September 13, 2014 8:29 pm

Thanks TOC.

Hopefully that’ll be part of a future upgrade path, along with quad packed CAMM.

I’m a firm believer that more is more. I like more. :-)

Observer
Observer
September 13, 2014 8:47 pm

If you are going to put your anti-ship missiles in a vertical box, don’t you need to increase the number of VLS to compensate? After all, the 48 cells were probably calculated to provide a specific level of capability, so if you took some out, you’re going below your calculated limits.

They did do numbers planning I hope and not just took “48” out of a hat….

Rocket Banana
September 13, 2014 9:00 pm

“What’s the long term plan?”

Make sure they’re bobbing about next to a floating airfield crammed full of F35B ;-)

The Other Chris
September 13, 2014 9:10 pm

Heh heh. Spot-on Simon, spot-on!

@Observer

Presumably the RN would fit the additional 12 VLS cells rather than up-gun, maybe even replace the A50’s with A70’s/Mk.41, especially if the long-term tests on the BMD pan out.

@Thread

On that topic, presuming development of Aster 30 Block 1NT/2 would be on the cards suggesting A70 if 1NT/2 require lengthier cells than A50.

Chances of a switch to Mk.41/CAMM/SM-6/SM-3?

mike
mike
September 13, 2014 9:15 pm

As awesome a sight, what is it with the RN and sending ships to inconvenient places? :D

Peter Elliott
September 13, 2014 9:40 pm

There is a whole wodge of questions to be answered about what T45 mid life refit will look like. As well as all the many permutations of Gun, VLS and Missiles is the vexed issue of propulsion. Can the WR21 be made to work reliably? Is just 12 GT units for 6 boats (no spares) sustainable? Is there a business case for sticking an MT30 in there instead?

Such a refit could confirm it as a world beating Destroyer for years to come. It could be an expensive bodge. Or at an outside bet it could even result in us scrapping the obsolescent and non standard hulls early to pull the Sea Viper system through onto late build Type 26s. Sounds radical but if we have to tear down and re-build the ships anyway to bring the principal systems up to date it could actually be cheaper to scrap and build, especially if the Type 26 line is ‘hot’ at that point.

Martin
Editor
September 14, 2014 4:37 am

Such beautiful ships. Its such a shame we can’t be arsed to spend a few quid on them to put a decent weapons load. 12 mk41 cells would make a massive difference and the cost would be minimal given the capability increase.

The oddities of the MOD really do perplex me. No one else in the world would set out to build the worlds best AAW destroyer then stop short of a few addons to allow it to realise that potential.

Observer
Observer
September 14, 2014 6:54 am

Martin, I’m sure it is wonderful at AAW, the problem comes when it meets someone floating rather than flying! :) I do get the point that if the area gets that hot, a patrol would either be reinforced or it should turn tail, but I rather force the other person to operate with caution than being the one forced to tread with care.

Right now, if someone wanted to cause trouble, all he had to do was shadow the ship beyond 30km and light it up once in a while with fire control radar. It’s not like it has not happened before and he “knows” you can’t reply effectively unless you got a Harpoon transplant. You really need SCALP-N, even the possibility of it being carried gives you a safety buffer that people are more careful about playing games with fire control.

Nobby Stiles
Nobby Stiles
September 14, 2014 8:04 am

A couple of things always spring to mind with the T45:

1. CIWS – wouldn’t it be better to have them in a fore-and-aft arrangement (bridge roof and hangar roof type areas)? That way, you can bring both to bear on an inbound missile. I cannot see that, where they are mounted, any more than one could ever be used defensively. I wondered if doctrine would be to go head-on / aft-on to the missile to present the smallest possible target signature (radar, optical, thermal) but it looks to me like the Phalanx may not be usable in a dead-ahead / dead-aft bearing from thosemounting points.

2. Fightiness – with so few escorts, I think that we need them all to have a decent degree of multi-role. T45 is a great air defence asset, but presents little offensive threat beyond 4.5″ gun and helicopter. IMO, it needs better threats to both surface targets and land targets. Don’t later blocks of Harpoon have a land attack mode and longer range? It would be nice if we could get a strike capability from an updated version of the same missile that they’re already fitted for. Although a better option would be to fit Tomahawk to this and the T26 too.

Mickp
Mickp
September 14, 2014 8:52 am

The propulsion issue is slightly concerning. I see no point in upgrading the main gun in the T45 lifetime, certainly not over 12 VLS cells which I would see as vital. @Nobby I agree on all round cover and think the hanger roof, assuming strong enough for most zero penetration mounts, should be utilised for additional defensive points. Harpoon will be ok but I hope there are plans for a more up todate missile in the same site.

Challenger
Challenger
September 14, 2014 9:55 am

I really think the future of AShM on the T45’s is a binary issue.

It seems like a real no-brainer to stick the same strike length silo’s on the T45 during their mid life refits as we are going to put on the T26 for the sake of commonality as well as facilitating Tomahawk/ Storm-Shadow or next-gen missiles and providing more room for a BMD capability.

That done it then remains to run Harpoon in the fleet until a certain point (currently seems to be 2018 but i would say post 2020 is more realistic) and in the meantime make a choice to either replace it with a similar system like the NSM (their are obviously other games in town but NSM would i think be the front contender) or look into something next-gen that fits into a silo, at which point it will then simply be another straight choice between the MBDA Perseus or whatever the Americans are fielding.

Done!

Dunservin
Dunservin
September 14, 2014 9:59 am

@RT – Tradition, dear boy. Tradition. Courtesy of Wikipedia:

Seven Royal Navy ships have been named HMS Duncan, after Admiral Adam Duncan, 1st Viscount Duncan of Camperdown, hero of the Battle of Camperdown.

HMS Duncan (1804) was built as the East Indiaman Carron, purchased upon completion in 1804, renamed HMS Dover in 1807 and wrecked in 1811.

HMS Duncan (1811) was a 74-gun third-rate launched in 1811, reduced to harbour service in 1826, and broken up 1863.

HMS Duncan (1859) was a 101-gun screw-propelled first-rate launched in 1859, employed on harbour service as HMS Pembroke in 1890, renamed HMS Tenedos in 1905, and sold in 1910.

HMS Duncan (1901), launched in 1901, was a Duncan-class battleship that saw action against German installations on the Belgian coast in World War I and was sold in 1920.

HMS Duncan (D99) was a D-class destroyer, launched in 1932 and scrapped in 1945.

HMS Duncan (F80) was a Type 14 frigate in service from 1957 to 1985.

HMS Duncan (D37) is a Type 45 destroyer launched on 11 October 2010.

AADDISON
AADDISON
September 14, 2014 1:55 pm

I suppose if it hadn’t have been named Duncan there’s a good chance it would have been Diana, a name that would be over the heads of the likes of Mr and Mrs. Daily Express.

Anixtu
Anixtu
September 14, 2014 2:41 pm

Nobby,

Phalanx is in my preferred location. Beam mountings suite doctrine better than fore/aft. Firing arcs are not an issue – ship manoeuvre is part of anti-ship missile defence.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
September 14, 2014 7:26 pm

Dunservin,

It may very well be tradition, but it’s bog all use in the modern day. My own ex-service makes similar excuses when things go wrong.

“Duncan” as a name is useless. It has been a nonce’s name since the 1970s, no matter the history. Right now, it is worse. Ask a teenager. The fact that there have been seven boats in the Andrew called Duncan is no current recommendation, and I’d personally observe that he’s had his run of names.

What about Dreadnought, or Damnation? Not sounding like gayboy milchkuhen.

monkey
monkey
September 14, 2014 7:56 pm

@RT
At least it wasn’t started about this loser Duncan – King of Scotland 1034 – 40
Duncan became King of Scotland upon the death of Malcolm in 1034. He was a much weaker character than Malcolm and a terrible leader. He led a disastrous campaign into Northumbria and was forced to retreat ignominiously back to Scotland.

John Hartley
John Hartley
September 14, 2014 9:52 pm

I read somewhere that by the time T45 gets Harpoon, it will only have it for 3 years before the RN retires Harpoon as a system. Well its only taxpayers money. Apart from Perseus, there is another advanced rocket/missile MBDA is supposed to be working on. Will go & see if I can find it.

John Hartley
John Hartley
September 14, 2014 10:03 pm

On naval-technology.com they have an item on the MBDA cvs 302 Hoplite. Mach 2 , air turbo rocket, 3.2m long, 120 kg. Anyone know anymore about it?

McZ
McZ
September 15, 2014 5:27 pm

Hoplite-S seems to be a RAM-driven Asraam/CAMM-body type missile, 70km range. The Hoplite-L seems to be a refined Meteor-body, offering 140km range. Both quad-packed and cold-launched.

I guess, it’s finally the unification of anti-air, anti-radar and anti-surface missile bodies. Especially the L-variant as a AD-missile could replace Aster 15 4-by-1; add to this ISO-container-capability, and we would finally have a mature land-based AD-system. This would elevate our scarce T45 to play offshore AD-battery. Let’s better start now.

Allan
Allan
September 15, 2014 6:26 pm

To The Most Esteemed and Knowledgeable Commentators on the Thread;

I’m sorry, but when I saw the picture I just heard the words of Sub-Lt Phillips, “Left Hand Down A Bit…..”