A World in Turmoil

With news that the US will be going to war in Iraq, again, I am reminded of this clip from the Godfather III

 

Whilst the Twittersphere has gone into meltdown about Gaza it remains largely silent on the horrific crimes against humanity and medieval barbarism perpetrated by followers of the religion of peace in Iraq.

President Obama has announced the US armed forces may be carrying out limited air strikes and will be delivering emergency aid to threatened minority communities in Iraq, especially those in Northern Iraq in the Sinjar area.

This is in response to the growing evidence of systematic genocide against Christian and other communities in ISIS held territory.

 

The Pentagon then went on to release footage of the air drops

 

Downing Street was quick to welcome the decision but stressed the UK would be sitting this one out with a note from Mum

'Britain rules out Iraq military action I UK news I theguardian_com' - www_theguardian_com_uk-news_2014_aug_08_britain-rules-out-iraq-military-action

 

 

The Middle East and large parts of Africa are in turmoil, Russian reserves have been called up and Ebola is on the march.

Someone has even designed a 3D printed self folding robot and Skynet has taken a step closer to reality.

 

The forthcoming NATO summit in Wales will be interesting to watch

Time to stock up on beans I think

 

 

 

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DomS
DomS
August 8, 2014 7:47 am

Yes, the BBC posted this story about what else is happening while attention is focused on Gaza:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-28691901
It’s strange really the different levels of coverage or protest. Maybe Galloway is going apeshit about the barbarity of ISIS and it’s just not being reported? Hmm.
Maybe there’s a perception that we can’t influence the death tolls in Iraq/Syria but we can in Israel? Without going into whether we *should*, I don’t think we *can* change Israeli government policy. We just don’t have that influence. And I’m not a fan of gesture politics.

DavidNiven
DavidNiven
August 8, 2014 8:07 am

‘Time to stock up on beans I think’

Excellent choice, you’ll produce enough biomass to power a small community.

On a more serious note, has good old Tony royally screwed our morality. Prior to Iraq the British public would not have flinched at another operation like ‘safe haven’ after GW1. I’m all for picking your involvements but are we just going to start sitting everything out from now on? strange how we can champion Libya and then sit back for this one.

John Hartley
John Hartley
August 8, 2014 8:32 am

Our political lords & masters never get the balance right. I suspect that if it was just a few airstrikes against the worst of the bloodthirsty jihadists, the public would not mind, as long as there were no British boots on the ground. So we need a long range bomber or carrier strike, errr, oops! What people do not want is mission creep & body bags.
Why are we not making the UK more energy & food self sufficient?
Why not a new small state owned energy company? Royal Navy Energy perhaps with many shore based PW3. Would provide the economies of scale/engineering base to make the PWR3 on future submarines easier to keep going.

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 8:50 am

The reason for the focus on Gaza is simple, large parts of the left leaning British media (notably the Guardian and the BBC) are anti-Semitic and they don’t want Israel to be allowed to defend itself because they want it to be destroyed. This is now being compounded by a political establishment desperate for the Muslim vote and thus willing to sacrifice Israel to get it. In the meantime, the black flag of the Islamic State flies in London: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/flag-isis-jihadi-islamic-state-flown-poplar-east-london

IXION
August 8, 2014 9:00 am

DomS

The big difference between IS and Israel is that the one is monotheistic entity born of war and conquest intent on rebuilding a state that lived in a mythical past. To that aim it is intent on suppressing/exterminating/expelling those who do not share it’s faith. Whilst claiming the authority of some sky fairy to justify for all the slaughter.

The other one is a bunch of Muslim nut jobs.

On a more serous note Israel is supposedly an Ally. (To quote Johnny Hart “with friends like these who needs enemas:). We are therefore lined up in the world’s eyes as a supporter if its “clearance operations of the Gaza ghetto’. So to a degree we can do something about that particular slaughter by saying “nope we do not agree and will not support your own little final solution to your nasty little race war.

We are not allies of the Islamic State. We can tell them to foxtrot Oscar.

It all comes down to “We are bloody Belgium you know”.

We simply do not have the:-

Men
Cash
Equipment
Will

To do this stuff any more.

We didn’t stop the slaughter in Syria because we could not.

We are not going back into Iraq because WE CAN’T.

The WASAWPYK crowd might want to think on that next time someone suggests we punch above our weight or whatever.

As for Russia like I said it’s a shadow of its former self in terms of numbers and skill.

Looking at is air power for example it’s almost non existent in terms of real deployable front rank weapons.

It would not take long to sink it’s navy.

And the days of 60, 000 T class tanks rolling westward with all the logistical support necessary long gone. This is an army that recently struggled to field 5 divisions…

TD

Stop trying to frighten the children into going to bed.

Peter Elliott
August 8, 2014 9:01 am

Anti-Semitism is a strong term. Large parts of the media are antipathetic to Israel. But that isn’t necessarily an unreasoning or prejudiced viewpoint.

The Israelis don’t do themselves any favours by defining their own state in religious rather than secular terms. If they gave more democratic and civil rights to the peaceful Arab Israelis (of whom there are plenty) then the world in general might be prepared to cut them more slack in terms of how vigerously they defend themselves against armed attacks.

Peter Elliott
August 8, 2014 9:04 am

Ixion

How many effective divisions, with logisitical support and effective corps command and control, do you think European NATO could get into the field right now? I bet its a lot less then 5.

DavidNiven
DavidNiven
August 8, 2014 9:13 am

‘We didn’t stop the slaughter in Syria because we could not.’

I thought it was because we did not want to. We would have just fired a few token TLAM’s anyway it’s the Americans who would have done the heavy lifting.

‘We simply do not have the:-

Men
Cash
Equipment
Will’

We have 3 out of the 4 for a mission like ‘Safe Haven’, and isn’t humanitarianism what we do, from Safe haven, Bosnia, Rwanda, Angola, Kosovo, Sierra Leone and Libya where they not all humanitarian missions?

What are the all singing and dancing light forces (much loved by commentators on this blog) for if we cannot secure an area and evacuate some people and f*ck off again?

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 9:18 am

IXION and PE,

Thank you for proving my point. Anyone who compares Israel’s operations in Gaza with ghetto clearing or the final solution is so far detached from reality as to either be completely bias or wholly ignorant. Talking of ignorance, Arab-Israeli citizens have the same rights as Jewish-Israeli citizens Nonetheless, the committed efforts of BBC to paint Israel as an aggressor, irrespective of evidence, have clearly been effective.

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 9:23 am

@DN – Got my vote; but if we lack the will for this task, I wonder if we are now bloody Belgium…an outcome that quite frankly horrifies me, although it may have the welcome side effect of cheering up .

Although not as much as redirecting the Defence Budget into Legal Aid, obviously… :-)

GNB

Chuck
Chuck
August 8, 2014 9:29 am

Another point the British media seems to completely miss, is that from an Israeli POV their controversial strategy over the last few years from the walls and blockades to these big ops and Iron Dome has been highly effective. Israeli civilian causalities have dropped to near nothing. Which was their intent from the start.

wf
wf
August 8, 2014 9:29 am

: have to agree with @Hohum there. The only difference between Arab and Jewish Israelis is that the former are not conscripted into the IDF but can volunteer instead. They have the same legal and political rights in every way. And if the thought of a state defining itself partly via religion is anathema, then most Muslim majority states do exactly the same, with many explicitly assigning members of other religions fewer rights.

Remember, despite appearances, the yuman rites crowd are not usually anti-Jewish per se, they are anti- Western. Anyone with the same hatreds is an ally, which is why the likes of Tony Benn had no issues siding with a fascist dictatorship in Argentina over his supposed desire for self-determination, and why they studiously ignore Hamas’s racism and de-fenestrations of anyone that disagrees with them.

It’s a tad disappointing to find someone who bought this crap here :-(

Engineer Tom
Engineer Tom
August 8, 2014 9:33 am

Surely Northern Iraq is a job for SF, send 10 or so blokes in to work with the friendlies on the ground (peshmerga and other minority militias), give them some airstrikes now and again, and it should stem the growth of IS.

This is an optimistic idea but isn’t this what the SAS and co train for, this is what happened in Afghanistan in 2001, ISAF etc came 5 years later.

We seem to be afraid of even doing the covert stuff these days, 15 years ago would the government blinked at the thought of sending SF into Iraq to secure the north by working with the Peshmerga.

monkey
monkey
August 8, 2014 9:49 am

Wf stated “most Muslim majority states do exactly the same, with many explicitly assigning members of other religions fewer rights.” Very true they also remove many rights from half of their own population , the female half .
The US was criticised for giving $225m to Isreal for weapons , it happens to be marked for Iron Dome ,a purely defensive weapon but some areas of the media choose to ignore that aspect. The layered defences that Isreal has built up on its borders to knock down incoming missiles and mortar rounds needs strengthening further , some form of directed energy weapon/rail gun which could detonate the incoming warhead over Gaza itself . Any damage would then self inflicted .
Isreal wants the citizens of Gaza to act in their own defence that if they see a Hama’s mortar/missile team setting up in their back yard or nearby roof they reach into their cupboard ,pullout their AK-47 and let fly. It isn’t going to happen though as Hama’s would just slaughter the family responsible.

DavidNiven
DavidNiven
August 8, 2014 9:49 am

@GNB

For me this is more a moral issue than chemical weapons in Syria. I could not give two sh*ts if one side in a bitter sectarian war decides to gas another, but if we do not help these people they are going to die, full stop. Either from lack of water and starvation to being brutally murdered in their hundreds by religious fanatics, for no other reason than their religion.

Where are all the we must do something brigade now?

@Engineer Tom

We do not need to fight ISIS we just need to secure an area to allow us to evacuate the people, the ABTF (or whatever they call it now) and CAS would do. Don’t stay to slug it out just get in and f*ck off.

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 9:59 am

– Quite right; furthermore, some leaders of the Christian Arab Communities are now actively campaigning to get more of their people to sign up to the IDF – presumably having observed the fate of Arab Christians elsewhere in the neighbourhood; they can see the extent to which what started as a classic 60’s “liberation movement” with a strong underpinning of secular Marxism has morphed into a sectarian Islamist one, even if many on the left here can’t. Can people remember PLO Poster Girl Leila Khaled? I can’t see her doing all that well in a Hamas-controlled Gaza myself. In fact, she is currently safely resident in Amman when not making hay on the Right-on Middle-Class Marxist Lecture Circuit in various Western Capitals, which pretty much sums up what happened to the old, secular Palestinian set-up.

A truly imaginative Israeli Government would offer safe haven to persecuted Arab Christians…ideally in concert with Kurdistan (whom they are inclined to recognise as an independent state)…and if we had any sense we would back them to the hilt in that endeavour…

But we won’t… :-(

Thus Gloomy as always.

Repulse
August 8, 2014 10:03 am

http://www.janes.com/article/41665/russia-to-double-size-of-airborne-forces

How much of Russia’s stance is bluster and how much is a real parting of ways… I think a bit of both, but if it gets the UK and Europe thinking seriously about defence before things get really out of hand it’s not a bad thing.

John Hartley
John Hartley
August 8, 2014 10:12 am

I wonder if Britain could play a part in getting peace for Gaza? One of the main Hamas demands is the lifting of the blockade. What if a British built/run ferry ran a shuttle between the Crown Sovereign base & Gaza? Israel could have a few security bods on our base to keep an eye on whats going in/out. It would allow Gaza to export its fruit to Europe & allow civilian building materials in to Gaza.

Ace Rimmer
August 8, 2014 10:24 am

GNB, I’m sure Israel once did a deal with the Christians (Phalangists?) in Southern Lebanon to provide a buffer for Israel’s Northern Border.

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 10:57 am

– History shows that Czar Putin’s predecessors expanded Holy Mother Russia by tacitly supporting Cossack adventures beyond their existing boundaries, and then dishing out rewards or punishments after the event, once the conquered areas were more or less secured. This wasn’t terribly dangerous when the majority of those affected were Siberian Tribesmen, various Caucasian Mountaineers, ramshackle post-Golden Horde Khanates along the Silk Road or at worst far-flung and semi-detached Ottoman or Manchu provinces on the fringes of their own gradually disintegrating States…not so good if the next group of extra-territorial Russians taken under Cossack “Protection” are the half-million or so living in Latvia either along the Russian Border or in the Coastal Cities…

Does anybody seriously think the Russians planned or indeed authorised the mass-murder of the passengers on Flight MH 317? I certainly don’t…but the problem is that Cossacks are a hell of a lot more dangerous and harder to manage when provided with AFVs and ground to air missiles than with Moisin-Nagant and Shaska…and when their misconduct is witnessed live rather than reported months or years afterwards.

GNB

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 11:00 am

Hartley…another good idea for the political class to completely ignore…

GNB

Chuck
Chuck
August 8, 2014 11:10 am

@JH: That would require doing a deal with Hamas. Seeing as they’re still on the Terrorist list, never going to happen. If it was Fatah in charge it might be different.

Related: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28699741 Ceasefire over. More rockets being fired from Gaza. Sure the Israeli response will be forthcoming.

DavidNiven
DavidNiven
August 8, 2014 11:22 am

We in this country are subjected to bombings and murders for the decisions of our elected governments, so can some one explain to me why I should feel sorry for the Palestinians voting for the government they have, which then went on to continuously fire rockets into Israel?

(I’m just playing devils advocate and am pretty neutral about the whole affair)

monkey
monkey
August 8, 2014 11:24 am

@JH & GNB
A good idea indeed , at present Gaza does not have a port as such just small fishing harbours but as TD would probably shout a harbour could be built relatively quickly ☺ regarding its use an international peace keeping force would man the port on an idefinate basis so checks can be made at both ends of the ferry journey between Cyprus an Gaza. Both ends of the journey to verify the cargo is clean of all weapons or material that could be used to make weapons. The Egyptians are keen for this too as they don’t want have to reopen the Rafah crossing as the onus will be on them to stop weapons shipments. At present Egyptian relations with Isreal are still peaceful but if weapons slip over the border that could change. The International airport could be reopened operating under the same conditions. This would reduce the need for Gazan citizens to have to travel through Isreal to travel by air .

IXION
August 8, 2014 11:33 am

HOHUM

I am not pro Arab or Muslim. I dont believe in sky fairys and those that practice descrimination or prosecute war in their name are dangerous deluded fools. I have been threatened with arrest and prososecution for my views on sexual descrimination practiced by some sects of that particular bunch of God botherers.

Neither do I believe the end justifies the means. be aware Israeli commemtatrs connected to the parties in govt have speculated that Gazza should be ‘cleared’ if necessary.

The current Israeli leadership have stated that they want Israel to be a JEWISH state with with the Jewish relegion enshrined in the constitution. I believe it was the defence secretary who has made speeches about ‘more land and less Arabs’ in Israel.

There is much wrong on both sides and frankly little right.

I was just making the point that unlike the Arabs; Israels latest attempts to ‘keep up with the Jonestowns’ are carried on to the accompianing chorus of how they are an ally of the west and it is somehow in our interrests to back this particular bunch of murderous wack jobs vs the other bunch.

DomS
DomS
August 8, 2014 11:36 am

One problem with ‘civilian building materials’ is that thousands of tons of the stuff has allegedly been diverted to make these tunnels all along the gaza strip. This when supplies such as concrete are in very short supply for civilian buildings.

Chuck
Chuck
August 8, 2014 11:42 am

On that point; Anything and everything can be used to military effect. Anyone who thinks certain items are purely ‘civilian’ in nature simply lacks imagination IMO.

Everything is ‘dual use’. Even down to food and water.

IXION
August 8, 2014 11:50 am

As for Iraq

I remember Iraq..

Was that was the war that we fought to liberate the Iraqi people from tyrany and turned them into a united democratic people with a ‘large well equiped well trained Well lead Iraqi Army’ to keep them safe for democracy?

Or was that the war where we trashed a functioning state unleashing murderous sectarianism and leaving in charge corrupt sectarians leading an army that f*cked of so fast when shot at there was a series of small supersonic pops as they legged it. Leaving behind all that kit. We trained them so well to use.

Good luck selling that to the general public.

“Vote for me I want to send our boys back to Iraq to fight and die for a people who wont fight for themselves, in an open ended commitment”.

Yea right.

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 12:00 pm

IXION,

Complete rubbish. Israel is a democracy that gives equal rights to all its minority citizens, Hamas is a terrorist organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the genocide of its Jewish citizens. Israel is right and Hamas is wrong.

DomS,

There is no allegedly about it, Hamas gets first call on smuggled building materials for its tunnel building operation, an exercise it has undertaken to allow its personnel to move into Israel so they can murder Israeli civilians.

DavidNiven
DavidNiven
August 8, 2014 12:07 pm

IXION

What does the invasion of Iraq have to do with helping people who face death without outside intervention? It’s not as if we have a precedent to follow with OP Haven.

And that is the point I was making in my first post on the subject, due to the involvement with Iraq we are no longer willing to do such things any more.

monkey
monkey
August 8, 2014 12:12 pm


Re Iraq
With you all they way there , same shit happened when after liberating the region from the Ottoman Empire ( not know for its gentle handling of local populations ,think Christian Armenian )with the British and the British Indian Army forces losing 92,000 soldiers in the Mesopotamian campaign the local population rebelled against us. Empire soilders had to take to going about armed in a minimum of squad level even in ‘freindly’ townships or risk a knife in the back. We informed the local leadership that if we left immediately the Turks would just re-occupy the region and exact their revenge on the population. We offered to handover to a local administration as soon as possible but this was not quick enough as they basicly wanted us gone as they realised we would do the same as the Ottomans and stop them slaughtering each other.

Ace Rimmer
August 8, 2014 12:24 pm

@Hohum re: ‘Hamas is a terrorist organisation ‘

Whether you like it or not, Hamas was democratically elected. In Northern Ireland the once convicted terrorists are now representatives in a democratically elected assembly. If I remember rightly the first leaders of Israel (Stern Gang and Haganah ring any bells?) were once denounced as members of terrorist organisations. Or is it a case a Arab and Palestinian terrorists and Israeli freedom fighters?

IXION
August 8, 2014 12:27 pm

HOHUM

I must have missed the granting all those rights to those in the west bank that live under the benificent rule of Israel.

We have a differnt view of what is ‘right’ given that less than 1 in ten people killed by the Israelis latest little escepade were Hamas fighters. And that Hospitals schools and refuge centres have all been targeted., does not make something ‘Right’ in my eyes.

Got a question for you….

How many Gazzans would have to die before you considered the Israelis had gone to far?

Screaming your a terrorsist is the right wing equivilent of screaming your a racist that the left endulge in. Its meant to shut down all possibility of dialoge puting the other guy in the wrong so your right.

Bullshit

The IRA were a terrorist organisation
The ANC were a terrorist organisation.
Ghandi was banged up as a subversive.
The US founding fathers would have rightly dwngled at the end of a rope if they had lost..

There are terrorists in the world of course some more ameanable than others……..

Hamas will not recognise Israel untill a deal is done and the Is dotted and Ts crossed. It is the only card it has to lay in any negotition so it will lay it last. Israel knows this fine well which is why it refuses to engage with Hamas until it gives up its only card, knowing that they can’t do it.

Remember on the democracy front that Hamas one the election and then we (the democratic west) told the palastinians to get stuffed if they thought we in the west would put up with that

John Hartley
John Hartley
August 8, 2014 12:29 pm

Various re British Cyprus-Gaza ferry. Civilian building materials. If concrete risks ending up in a bunker/tunnel, just send in glass. Probably a lot of broken windows in Gaza.
As for talking to terrorists, I remember walking around the museum in Tel Aviv dedicated to the terrorists who attacked the British Army & civilians. My teeth were clamped together that day.

IXION
August 8, 2014 12:32 pm

DN

And then what?

How do we keepnthem safe?
how long do we keep them safe?
What if IS is here to stay?
What if Iraqi Army stays as crap as they have been so far?

P2000
P2000
August 8, 2014 12:35 pm

Leaving aside the rights and wrong of intervention or non intervention in Gaze, Syria, Iraq or wherever, my real concern is that despite the much-vaunted talk of putting diplomacy back at the heart of UK foreign policy, and the establishment of a national security council and apparatus, we have precisely no grand strategy.

The next 20 years are going to be far more difficult fore the global economy than the last 20. That will of itself create tensions – look at what 5 years of low / no growt in the West has done. Is hiding away on our island a viable option? And if not then what is the right defence posture and what does it cost? And how do we fund it, given that we also need to build 900 more schools in the next 5 years, and pay for the NHS and pensions.

Instead we get a combination of hand-wringing morality, and a pretence that we can be pro-cake, and pro-eating it when it comes to foreign affairs and defence. Farce.

monkey
monkey
August 8, 2014 12:37 pm

Hama’s have declared their tunnel network is damaged but still fuctioning ,with only 1 in 10 Hama’s soilders as yet been ordered to attack but the remainder are on high ‘alert’ just waiting the order to unleash a huge bombardment on Isreal with the large stocks of weapons they have available.
This isn’t going to stop anytime soon if there is any truth in their words.
The tunnels are something they have plenty of practice at using them extensively to smuggle goods and people under the Egyptian / Gazan border.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6861/308/1600/rafah_tunnel.jpg

DavidNiven
DavidNiven
August 8, 2014 12:38 pm

IXION

IS are here to stay for a long while, we just need to aid in the evacuation of those civilians (Kurdistan, southern Iraq). We would not be there to fight IS for the Iraqi’s. The least we could do is drop some food and water, it’s not as if we have not in some way got a hand in the making of the situation.

IXION
IXION
August 8, 2014 12:41 pm

IXION,

All Israeli citizens in the West Bank have the same rights irrelevant of their religion. The Palestinians are the responsibility of Fatah.

The casualty figures for Operation Protective Shield are highly dubious and deliberately manipulated by Hamas who has a habit of using civilians as human shields. Schools and hospitals get hit for the same reason, Hamas’ use of them for military operations is well documented. Not to mention that sometimes munitions go astray and targeting fails.

Israel only attacked Gaza because Hamas attacked Israel.

It is obvious that you hate Israel but I will not let you spread lies here.

wf
wf
August 8, 2014 12:43 pm

: Iraq *was* a murderous sectarian state, where Kurds and Shiites were murdered in their hundreds of thousands before even GW1, let alone GW2. Don’t you remember?

We left a functioning democracy, but a weak one. The US unilaterally withdrawing ensured it would be dependent on Iran, from which the sectarian bent of the current government flows. The current situation shows that US Democrat politicians are so murderously sectarian that they would prefer to see the US have it’s foreign policy trashed just so they can claim the previous president was wrong. It’s not as if it hasn’t happened before :-(

@Ace Rimmer: when was the last election in Gaza?

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 12:52 pm

I do see this in a large part as Hamas’s fault for the intrusions into Gaza. If you left the situation alone, it is almost always them who start lobbing explosives into Israel first, which escalates the situation quickly into “very bad” territory. I may not be connected to any Middle Eastern government, but unfortunately for IXION’s stance that only government mouthpieces see a “final solution” method of stopping the problem in the Middle East, I’m also starting to be of the opinion that the only time Israel can be free of these harassment attacks is if the Palastinians are totally wiped out. Nasty of me I know, but some cases, only a total extermination can solve the problem. Unfortunately it is now not PC to recommend such methods. If someone builds his entire life around killing you and isn’t inclined to live and let live, the only ways to stop him are to neuter him, which isn’t working, or kill him.

IXION, I believe that a country whose national anthem is “The Sky Fairy saves the *insert gender based job description of choice*” isn’t in a really good position to be tossing stones about other countries basing their government structure on shades of religion. :) I think it be your atheism shading your view of other country’s religious based system. Nothing really wrong with that but you really need to see how much does religiousity work into the government structure of the country on an individual basis, and for Israel, it really isn’t much. The Arabs are a lot more involved in religion based governments.

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 12:53 pm

IXION,

Complete rubbish, again. Israel attacked Gaza because Hamas attacked Israel. Hamas attacks Israel because it’s own charter demands the destruction of Israel and genocide against Jews. As has been pointed out to you, but which you choose to ignore, all Israeli citizens have equal rights.

That a relatively small number of people dies in Gaza as a result of a war started by Hamas is not surprising or Israel’s fault. As you said, they elected Hamas and by that logic carry responsibility for the war that Hamas started.

Peter Elliott
August 8, 2014 12:59 pm

And what about all the people who have lived in Israel all their lives who are not Israeli Citizens and have no means of achieving that citizenship?

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 1:13 pm

PE,

Who are those people? There multiple ways of becoming an Israeli citizen and all children of Israeli citizens are also considered Israeli citizens. The Arabs within Israel were offered, and granted if they wanted, Israeli citizenship after the 1948 war.

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 1:16 pm

PE, I don’t see any major differences in Israeli citizenship laws with respect to most other nations save the bar on some other specific countries nationals which is a security issue, not a racial one. Once the security level ramps down over time, I suspect that the bar is going to be lifted. There really isn’t much difference in their laws vs other countries.

Those that live there are entitled to citizenship after 3 years out of 5 unless you are from some specific other countries. But if you lived there all your life, that shouldn’t be a problem. In theory.

monkey
monkey
August 8, 2014 1:33 pm

RAF planes to drop food aid in Iraq
“Michael Fallon said the UK’s main focus was supporting the US in its planned air strikes on militants with surveillance and refuelling.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28701642

Jonathan
Jonathan
August 8, 2014 1:35 pm

I read an article in the spectator that said in effect our media and leaders were anti Semitic because of the tone of reporting around actions in gaza. Now I know I’m not anti Semitic as my general overriding moral imperative is that of an egalitarian. I may not agree with something (religion) or like somthing ( the right and left wings) but if it does not hurt innocent people I’m not much fussed. So why does the Israel’s action in Gaza feel wrong…… Because they are killing lots of innocent people and the threat to Israel is not so large as to justify that.

Let’s be honest at the hight of the troubles the IRA were almost as drestructive against UK civilians and military personal as Hamas and were actively supported by a good percent of the population in the north. The UK did not use air strikes and heavy weapons on the towns of ulster or send in military strikes to the south. I don’t have an issue with the IDF going toe to toe with Hamas as the UK did with the IRA. But unless you are in some sort of total war for survival or the loss of inocent will be greater if you don’t, using heavy weapons in urban areas packed full of innocents is just wrong.

As for ISIS, genocide is one of those areas I do think we have an moral imperative to prevent, its damaging to who we are as a nation not to help prevent this from occurring. Supporting aid drops and safe areas is the minimum we should be involved in. Arguing that ISIS are not going away is no justification for stepping back….. Genocide never goes away, does not mean we should should stop try to prevent it.

Not a Boffin
Not a Boffin
August 8, 2014 1:47 pm

Before we all jump on the “Evil Red sea Pedestrians slaughtering masses of helpless Gazan civpop” bandwagon, peddled relentlessly over the last few weeks, have a gander at this :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28688179

Seems even Auntie may have realised that Orla Guerlin and Jeremy Bowen may not be entirely objective in their reporting…..

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 1:54 pm

Jonathan, if I was cynical, I’d say that it is a war of survival for their government. If they did not take action, what do you think will happen if an opposition party promising more “affirmative action”, “more sympathy to those who lost friends and family to terrorists” and a more “pro-active solution to the daily bleeding of our people” comes into being? You’ll end up with the same situation in the end, just one election down the road. The problem is that Hamas, knowingly or unknowingly (I suspect knowingly), created a road where there is only one course to follow in what I suspect are PR ploys using their own people as sacrificial pawns.

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 2:03 pm

Jonathon,

So what do you propose the Israeli’s do? Spend the rest of their lives constantly running to bomb shelters? What they have been subjected to, despite the BBC’s desire to hide it from you, is a sustained artillery bombardment aimed at civilian population centres. Israeli civilian casualties have only been so low because of the widespread and frequent use of bomb shelters and iron dome.

No A Boffin,

Exactly, the Palestinian civilian casualty figures peddled by some are a complete fiction that rely on some absurd assumptions.

monkey
monkey
August 8, 2014 2:25 pm

@NAB
It seems based on the link you provided that a considerable number of the noncombatants have been miss-identified ,both men and women (Hama’s have declared they have many female volunteer fighters) . The UN’s inability to ascertain the status of the casualties as they mostly don’t wear a recognised uniform so they if dressed in civilian clothes attribute them on the none combatant list.

A Different Gareth
A Different Gareth
August 8, 2014 2:36 pm

Engineer Tom said: “We seem to be afraid of even doing the covert stuff these days, 15 years ago would the government blinked at the thought of sending SF into Iraq to secure the north by working with the Peshmerga.”

For all we know they could already be lending a hand.

A bit of idle thought – would the Sinjar mountain ridge make a good place for a special forces base? It’s a ridge of about 50km long and upwards of 1km in altitude, with flat land on most sides. There is a small settlement on the ridge and a few roads that cross it. Would the difficulties in getting to it make it a good place to set up shop or a dangerous place (in terms of being surrounded and attacked from the land below)?

Jonathon said: “So why does the Israel’s action in Gaza feel wrong…… Because they are killing lots of innocent people and the threat to Israel is not so large as to justify that.

Let’s be honest at the hight of the troubles the IRA were almost as drestructive against UK civilians and military personal as Hamas and were actively supported by a good percent of the population in the north. ”

The IRA pale into comparison with Hamas in terms of weaponry fired at their enemy, in their grip on the population in Gaza versus the IRA in Northern Ireland and in Hamas’s disinterest in put its weapons beyond use and find a political solution. Despite that disparity the British armed forces and police and security services expended a lot of blood and energy trying to degrade the effectiveness of the IRA.

I find it odd that it is really only since the Iron Dome system became effective that the media have been happy to report on the rocket attacks. Beforehand there were warning sirens and the emergency shelters but it received little attention. A brief remark in a report. Little detail. Even now it is rare to see footage of Israelis legging it to shelters but now that the prospect of reporting Israeli deaths is minimal the rockets can be waved away as not much of a threat. Thousands of rockets have been launched and due to the diligence of the state and the public I wouldn’t be surprised if there has been more deaths in Gaza due to rocket malfunctions than the numbers of deaths in Israel. The threat is being actively countered, it has not been eliminated.

IXION
August 8, 2014 2:41 pm

HOHUM

At least observer has the balls to say if necessary avpalastinian genocide is justified….. (if not a bit war criminally for saying so). Presumably by his logic the Arabs are equally therefore justified in killing all the Israelis so they can have peace?

I will ask you again seing as how you dodged the question how many dead gazzans before you say Israel has gone to far 10, 20, 30%?

As for the statistics on deaths; I do not claim that Israel is deliberatly slaughtering women and children.

However what is in effect a large densly populated city is being shelled and hospitals destroyed with tank shells and guided weapons which mean most probably that the people doing the shelling can see exactly what they are aiming at.

Jonathan is right about the IRA.
if the Israelis had been running Belfast theu would have shelled the catholic areas!

HOHUM I have an idea for the Israelis Make Peace. Its something one does. Usualy you find it being done with between people who were once bitter enemies…. Thats the point.
C

dgos
dgos
August 8, 2014 2:41 pm

I thought BBC had to be balanced – if appeal for cash for Gaza why no appeal for cash for Israel to buy more Iron Dome missiles – if they run out then they will take civvy casualties.

Did any of you see the clip by Indian news team of HAMAS firing rockets from built up area – quite an eye opener?

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 2:47 pm

IXION, I work on first strike principle. The person starting the fight is the one in the wrong. If Israel decided to invade Gaza after a decade of peace for no reason, I would be calling for their armies to be pounded into scrap metal. In this case, popping off a few rounds of hi-ex into someone’s backyard isn’t normal diplomatic correspondence in my eyes.

If Hamas wants that strip of land Israel is sitting on back, there are many other ways to do it, pity they only see their solution as one that is solved by number of barrels on guns.

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 2:55 pm

BTW, hospital being shelled, not really. A few years back, a friend of mine in Indonesia got his place bombed. It so happened that it was being used as a field hospital/refuge too, but chances are the people that did it didn’t know, they just attacked it as the property of “someone against them”, so these things do happen, especially unmarked/low visibility marked ad hoc field hospitals.

What can I say, shit happens. I am rather forgiving of accidents, so if the rounds fired into Israel was by a misfire or a short circuit, I would say life’s a bitch, even if it cost lives. But deliberately, now that is a different story, it shows intent.

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 3:00 pm

IXION,

Stop talking nonsense. About 0.1% of Gaza’s population died in the last operation, its not remotely near genocide in way shape or form so stop trying to distract from reality with your outright lies. As you well know, in combat, munitions sometimes go where they shouldn’t, especially when the enemy uses schools and hospitals as shields.

The IRA never fired rockets by the hundred into civilian areas so that’s another pointless diversion from you.

The Israeli’s would like to make peace, it’s a bit difficult though when the concession Hamas wants is the destruction of Israel and the genocide of its Jewish population (something which would no doubt make you happy).

wf
wf
August 8, 2014 3:00 pm

: if, as you say, the Israelis believe in shelling indiscriminately anyone firing at them, they seem to have been rather remiss in failing to shell the West Bank. Could the lack of thousands of rockets being fired against Israeli cities from the West Bank be something to do with this? Stranger things have happened!

Jonathan
Jonathan
August 8, 2014 3:20 pm

@Hudum

I would suggest that you underestimate the impact of the IRA and the level of support for them both in Southern and Northern Ireland. At the hight of the troubles in one year they set of around 1300 bombs killed 100 bristish servicemen and wound 500 others. Over the course of the 30 years of the troubles 3500 people were killed and over 50,000 injured. There have been more before and since.

In the 13 years since Hamas started rocket attacks on Israel they have killed 28 people and injured 1300.

It would be a stretch to call Hamas an existential risk to the survival of Israel. The other major state actors around Israel are or could be a risk. How Israel handles gaza give those potential state actors fuel against Israel.

I’m not saying Israel should stand by and let Hamas fire rockets at it. But it could be a bit softly softly ( bullets not heavy weapons in urban areas) in its aproach and use other methods. It worked for the UK in the end. Israel does need at some point to find a way out, fueling the hatred of those around it is it’s biggest existential risk.

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 3:26 pm

Jonathon,

Really? Hamas’ lack of success has been down to Israel’s use of bomb shelters and iron dome, not down to lack of effort. When it comes to effort Hamas far exceeds anything the IRA could ever have mustered. I also note you have not answered the question, what do you want Israeli’s to do? Spend the rest of their lives constantly running to bomb shelters as rockets rain down on their livelihoods?

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 3:29 pm

Jonathan I do get a bit of what you are saying. Unfortunately, the “small arms only” approach would cost a lot more Israeli lives. Being stuck with only 5.56mm in FIBUA is a terrible, terrible situation. I will not be surprised if casualties climbed to 5-10 times previous, and that is a conservative estimate.

If you have to do FIBUA without heavy weapons support, I would recommend “Don’t”. So unfortunately with regards to heavy weapons, it is actually all or nothing. Use them and enter the area, or leave them behind and cancel the op.

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 3:36 pm

Observer,

Not to mention that approach would actually hand fire-power over-match to Hamas which makes frequent use of everything from recoilless rifles to RPG’s, high end ATGM’s and large IED’s.

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 3:50 pm

@Thread:

> Kurdistan is a functioning quasi-state with a decent record for tolerance at home, a readiness to protect refugees from minority groups, an army that will fight, and improving relations with the NATO member next door…absolutely no reason why an effort based on providing them with arms and ammunition. logistics, air cover and major help to manage the refugee problem should require boots on the ground beyond Military Advisers and possibly a hard-hitting in and out operation to help stabilise a defensible frontier…exactly as was done twenty-some years ago…there is no reason to anticipate an unmanageable quagmire, and no reason not to act beyond moral cowardice.

> The IRA comparison is wholly unfair…that was an armed policing action with small-arms. I have absolutely no idea what we would have done if the Irish Government had allowed the IRA to line up thousands of rocket launchers along the border and starting firing hundreds every night at random…but my money would be on an Armoured Brigade parked outside Dublin Castle the following morning. Likewise if every Irish Pub or Saint Patrick’s Club in England had put a mortar in the car-park and started dropping bombs into the council estate next door I don’t think we would have negotiated a cease-fire until after the untimely deaths of the perpetrators, and anybody foolish enough to be standing around and cheering them on.

> Finally, how hard would it be to fit western equipment going to places where it might fall into the wrong hands with a passive tracking/surveillance device and an appropriate self-destruct mechanism, to be activated remotely as required. I am entertaining a cheering vision of all those hummers, guns and tanks providing a live information feed to a bunch of geeks in a shed at the edge of Erbil Airport, until such time as it seems appropriate for shells to explode in the breach and the dashboard to terminate the occupants of the vehicle… :-)

GNB

Fedaykin
August 8, 2014 4:14 pm

Also guys when we are talking about Hamas they do not have a unified command structure, it is made up of a number of competing factions.

The most recent set of blood-letting started when members of the Qawasameh clan allegedly decided to kidnap and then kill three Israeli teenager via the tunnel network.

The Qawasameh faction are entirely against any move by Hamas towards rapprochement with Israel and regularly break cease fires. There are actually factions within Hamas who are prepared to reach some kind of compromise with Israel but there isn’t enough unity within the competing groups to actually follow through.

IXION
August 8, 2014 4:23 pm

HOHUM

We aint gonna agree on this. To say the least.

You see Gallant free democratic Israel surrounded by the forces of darkness.

I see two murderous fantasy based regimes slaughterng or attempting to slaughter one another.

I just dont think its in our interrests to support one side or the other.

Only .1percent killed eh? Oh well thats all right then.

Still like you to answer my question ‘ what percentage of the Gazzan population are the Israelis allowed to kill in self defence’?

Observer

The Pont is some of the stuff used by the Israelis, Cleary will cause casualties and some of the targets are clearly deliberatly chosen non Hamas buildings.

Wf

This Israelis are shelling Gazza because Gazza is shelling them. It is the disproportionate use of force by the dominant power that makes it a war crime.

Like I said we should stop supporting isreal and sell as many weapons as possible to the Arabs. They have the cash we could make some money….

The real cynic tells me that untill the Arabs find a way kill Israelis in high enough numbers to make the israrlis scream then there will be no peace. After all it was only when the south african economy tanked that de clerke would do a deal, and it was only when Catholics starred dying in significant numbers that the IRA decided to talk………..

Depressing thought that….

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 4:35 pm

IXION,

Hamas, determined to destroy Israel and committed to genocide against it’s Jewish population, bombarded Israel with hundreds of rockets for months and dug tunnels to allow its murder to squads to infiltrate Israel- Israel responded entirely proportionately to that threat as the small number of Palestinian civilian casualties attests too.

Your desire to abandon the Israeli’s to be slaughtered belies your real motivation, you are an anti-Semite.

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 4:46 pm

IXION,

Sorry for the second reply but some of your comments are just too idiotic to ignore:

Perhaps you could explain what a “non-Hamas” building is? Is, in your opinion, Israel only allowed to bomb buildings that Hamas owns the deeds to?

Israel should make peace? How it is to do that when Hamas is demanding that Israel be destroyed and its Jewish inhabitants slaughtered?

Chuck
Chuck
August 8, 2014 4:47 pm

RE: Kurdistan, nothing against them. Would be happy to see them gain a homeland. Exactly the kind of people we should be befriending in the area, rather than just those with the most oil. Which depending on how this shakes out might include them, actually. Interesting thought.

I notice the first US air-strikes were in defence of Irbil. Could be an interesting realpolitic gambit. In those terms, If we’re going to pick a winner. I’d pick them. Least effort, most to gain and most practicable. Let ISIS vs. Iran/Iraq/Syria play itself out while using the air strikes and selling them weapons to save face with Baghdad. It seems the west has acknowledged it’s not going to war with them in totality on any moral grounds. Protect our interest and make new friends.

RE: Trackers and self destruct; great til someone hacks it. Of course the make it more secure than the top secret stealth drone or the F-35 designs or the diplomatic cables or the Afghan War Files or the NSA’s darkest secrets and well, pretty much everything else the NSA had. :P

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 4:53 pm

Hohum, less name calling please. It doesn’t help especially on how to change someone’s opinion.

IXION, I doubt it. If the Arabs got enough firepower to kill Israelis in job lots, the 2 factions won’t have peace. Too much bad blood. They’ll simply go for a mutual “final solution”. You may underestimate the Israeli mindset. Remember the Yom Kippur war? Pincered from 2 sides, outnumbered initially and losing by the numbers, they simply hit back.

Israel has long since been willing to talk peace, ever since the PLO and Camp David. Unfortunately, the Palestinians also have a habit of thinking that a compromise is never enough and lob rockets into Israel to keep the pot boiling. Want to take a bet who will break the next ceasefire? And the ceasefire after that and one more to boot? Hamas has a pattern of behaviour that negates any attempt at co-existence or compromise.

As for the weapons being used, Hamas made their bed and now they have to lie in it. I have nothing against 155mm on “civilian” buildings if the building is sheltering people firing at you. He doesn’t care if you live or die and is actively trying to promote the latter, why should you care about him? They call it “civilian” buildings, but buildings do not have sides, their occupants do. If someone is firing machine gun fire at you from a hospital, do you let him continue? You can easily say “Oh we let him fire at us until he runs out of ammo.” but if you were the one shot at, would you be so generous? Easy to recommend other people get maimed and die for Politically Correct. Harder to do so with your own hide on the line. Hospital or no hospital, someone shoots at me from a window, it’s going to eat a LAW round. Him or me? I’ll rather it be him.

wf
wf
August 8, 2014 5:04 pm

: there’s no limit in international law as to the “numbers killed in self defence”, as I’m sure you well know. If attacked you are allowed to do just about anything except directly targeting non-combatants.

I thought 3000+ missiles fired was fairly proportionate to what followed from the other side. It’s not relevant that the Israelis can stop most of the dangerous ones, and frankly asinine to declare that their foresight should ban them from firing back. Not something that would fly in a democracy like Israel: unlike Gaza or the West Bank, there’s no “one man, one vote, once” rule…

BTW, as a matter of fact, PIRA cannot have started negotiating because “Catholics starred dying in significant numbers that the IRA decided to talk” since the body count was 100-ish or less since 1977 p.a. They talked because they realised they were failing. Personally, I suspect the PA and Hamas or their sucessors will only talk when they disband UNRWA and the former suddenly have to do the stuff people who run states normally do: eg, worry about food, housing and suchlike. Right now, they are free to concentrate on other things, and it’s not helping.

A Different Gareth
A Different Gareth
August 8, 2014 5:13 pm

RE: Israel and Gaza

The UN is overwhelmed and lacks strong support imo. If they are unable to prevent Hamas from using their schools, warehouses and shelters to store and launch weapons (which they admit) then perhaps they should either withdraw or demand a peacekeeping force in order to prevent Hamas from having free reign to turn all and sundry into human shields.

IXION
August 8, 2014 5:18 pm

HOHUM

Like I said at the start of this I don’t much give a stuff about God botherers, of any persuassion. Only when they start telling me that there particular sky fairy speaks to them and gives them authority to kill maim and opress in his name. Then (rather like the hearse driver in ‘The magnificent 7’). I get dowright bigoted….

As it happens at the moment I have more gay friends than Jewish ones but that was not always the case.

Rather like the ‘Terrorist’ or ‘Racist’ weapon it is designed to shut up the other guy. For the record I am not an Anti Semite. I will however happily wear the badge of anti Israeli. But then I was also Anti Gadafi, Anti Soviet (when we had such beasts), and have been anti lots of things. Even Elephants of the sea going variety.

As we are getting all biblical you have thrice refused to answer the questuon about how many dead gazzans. I wont bother asking it again.

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 5:31 pm

IXION,

What you claim not to be and the arguments you make are not consistent.

This is not a an issue of religion, the fact that you are desperate to make it one further demonstrates where your views come from. It is a security issue, Israel was bombarded with hundreds of rockets for months on end and faced infiltration through tunnels by murder squads despatched by an organisation whose own charter demands the destruction of Israel and the genocide of it’s Jewish population. Israel responded entirely proportionally to that ongoing threat.

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 5:41 pm

IXION, trice is biblical? Thought that was Wiccan.

Jonathan
Jonathan
August 8, 2014 5:52 pm

@HOHUM

As to the question, what should Israel do about Hamas ? It’s a hard one because the who Arab Israel conflict is difficult. With stressors going back to the holocaust, british rule and promises to Palestine, international mismanagement of the birth of the new Israeli state and five wars with it Arab States.

Israel is a nation in a state of hyper acute fight or fly syndrome with no option of flight. But the more it reacts with a fight response the more violence and hatred it draws down on itself from the Arab world.

In my view the only way for Israel to secure its future is to try and reduce the cycle of violent response on both sides.

1) work to make gaza and the West Bank a fully functional Palestinian state.
2) this would include looking at the key issues, port, airport, West Bank occupation settlers etc.
3) look to the economic welling of an independent Palestinian state

This would defang Hamas who could be sidelined with more moderate groups being supported. This would also remove a key problem to the more moderate Arab States and Israel forming a strategic partnership ( Jordan etc),the gulf states now have bigger problems than Israel and need strategic partners.

And if they feel it is important to send a message around attacks, locate and kill leaders organising the attacks using special forces.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
August 8, 2014 6:04 pm

Re Kurdistan / ISIS etc, what we really need are two honking great flat tops filled with F-35Bs (no boots on the ground, see? Clever thinking from the MoD). After all, it is only 460 nm from the northern Gulf, overflying the peaceful territory of our good friends the Iranians to Irbil, and the combat radius carrying internal weapons only is by chance 450 nm.

Bugger. We should have bought planes with a longer range.

IXION
August 8, 2014 6:07 pm

Ho hum

Israel claims it occupies land given to It by god. Temple mount and all.

The Arabs say it their’s given to them by god.

The fact you won’t answer the question says it all really.

I do not deny Israel it’s right to defend itself just it’s chosen methods.

Many years ago I read a spoof advert for the deadly Welsh martial Art of ‘yacki dah’. It guaranteed total domination of your personal space. Total protection against anyone creeping up on you…… It involved beating the shit out of anyone who came within 4 feet of you with a pick axe handle. Whether they threatened you or not. Seems the Israeli ‘s have read the advert.

Hohum

Stop trying to play the man. If you can’t handle the idea that many are deeply sceptical of Israel’s claim to right in this war then tough.

Still not answering the question.

Observer

How many times did Peter deny Christ before cock crow. I thought it was 3 times.

Now where did I put my much thumbed copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Oh there It is. Next to my signed copy of Mien kampf

Simon257
Simon257
August 8, 2014 6:08 pm

These two articles are worth reading, the first is from the Middle East Media Research Institue from 2008, which really has a go at Hamas for previous altercations with Israel:

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3020.htm

This one is from Australia’s Business Insider, which see’s this crisis as part of a wider bun fight:

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/proxy-conflicts-in-gaza-2014-8

@ Thread
Just on Gaza internal politics, didn’t Hamas seize power in the Gaza Strip from Fatah. I do seem to remember reports of Fatah militiamen being summarily executed by Hamas?

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 6:08 pm

@Observer – Luke 22:59-62 is the reference you are looking for, old boy… :-)

GNB

WiseApe
August 8, 2014 6:15 pm

Re Kurdistan / ISIS etc, what we really need to do is put boots on the ground for years again because it worked out so well last time.

DomS
DomS
August 8, 2014 6:16 pm

It’s clearly an emotive one… A couple of things from me. First I think I read somewhere that NI was ‘resolved’ by ruthlessly targeting some Republican elements while protecting and cultivating those who we could eventually work with. That, if true, must have required some serious nose holding by politicians and security services alike. Which brings me to my next point, what is our national interest here? It’s clear that we can’t solve all the world’s problems. Seems to me that we generally are seeking stability, while balancing a desire to hold the US close while placating left wing public opinion at home. As per usual.

wf
wf
August 8, 2014 6:16 pm

@Jonathan: it’s interesting to note on the lack of major demonstrations in say Egypt, let alone other Arab states, about the Gaza operation. The average Arab government is even quieter. Interesting, isn’t it?

UNRWA does a lot of the stuff you want Israel to do already. They even look after internal refugees so that Hamas doesn’t have to, which is half the problem. In reality, nothing can change until Hamas is soundly defeated, which is handy, because from my score card, they have been, and even their on/off BFF’s the Iranian’s will have difficulty replenishing their missile stocks now. Lets hope their failure causes some good consequences: having utterly failed to both hit anything with missiles, had most of their tunnels in construction wiped out, large casualties in their foot soldiers, and from the border point of view, back to status quo ante or worse, we might see a significant change.

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 6:17 pm

– Israel occupies land under UN Resolution 181(ii), and might have done so as a part of a two state solution had the neighbouring Arab states accepted it. It has nothing whatsoever with God’s position on the matter, and everything to do with international law. I take it you are generally in favour of all parties to an international dispute abiding by the law are you? :-)

GNB

wf
wf
August 8, 2014 6:19 pm

: Hamas had several hundred Fatah members hurled from the top of Gaza’s larger buildings when they took over in 2007. We let Blair live in 2010 :-)

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 6:23 pm

Thought that was a one shot incident not repeated Gloomy. Hardly prescriptive.

IXION, don’t feed Hohum any more ammo please, if he knew you were a proponent of Mien Kampfy Chair, he’ll plotz.

On the by and by, I am not skeptical about Israel’s claim to that piece of land. Nor am I skeptical of claims of the Palestinians, the British, the Ethiopians and the other assorted claimants to the area. They have all held power there at one time or another and all are more or less equally valid. Pity they can’t get to play nice and share.

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 6:23 pm

@Wise-ape – The RM Boots on the Ground as a part of Operation Safe Haven were there from April to July 1991, had the support of the local population and laid the foundations for the one part of Iraq that looks like a reasonably tolerant functioning state willing to protect embattled minorities, accept refugees and so far as possible take the fight to Caliph Ibrahim…

Just saying :-)

GNB

IXION
August 8, 2014 6:24 pm

Gnb

Very much in favour like withdrawing to 67 borders.

Allowing a right of return.

You know stuff like that…….

John Hartley
John Hartley
August 8, 2014 6:27 pm

RT. Well if a Voyager is stationed in Bahrain, then that can give the F-35B the range needed. Or copy the USMC & have a few V-22 with the tanker kit. Plus of course, stand off weapons like SDBII, Spear 3 or even Paveway with a wing kit. Plus those stealth Israeli drop tanks.

Not a Boffin
Not a Boffin
August 8, 2014 6:40 pm

“Re Kurdistan / ISIS etc, what we really need are two honking great flat tops filled with F-35Bs (no boots on the ground, see? Clever thinking from the MoD). After all, it is only 460 nm from the northern Gulf, overflying the peaceful territory of our good friends the Iranians to Irbil, and the combat radius carrying internal weapons only is by chance 450 nm”

Or you do the sensible thing and operate from the Med , with overflight of Turkey – yes that has it’s own issues, but less likely to throw a hissy than if we asked to operate out of Incirlik. Or have I missed something?

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 6:45 pm

IXION,

As has been explained to you many times before, Israel was attacked repeatedly and indiscriminately by a an organisation whose own charter demands the destruction of Israel and the extermination of its Jewish population. Israel’s response to this was an entirely proportionate and legal military operation. Your desperation to make this a topic of religion makes it clear what your real motives are.

As for the right of return- who is supposed to be returning where? There are very few Palestinians who left areas now in Israel in 1947 even left alive, and where they inhabit now is not some tented refugee camp but a major permanent urban settlement. The right of return issue is canard used by those seeking the destruction of Israel, it has not been practical for 50 years and it won’t suddenly become so. Israel already acted in good favour by demolishing the settler presence in Gaza- for its trouble it has been repeatedly attacked from that place.

Your question is an irrelevant distraction you have conjured up in a desperate attempt to play unsustainable genocide card. As has been pointed out to you Israel does not target civilians and in the latest conflict only 0.1% of the Gaza population were killed.

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 6:49 pm

– Is Hamas now offering a deal on that basis? Have they deleted the “kill all the Jews” clause in their constitution?

GNB

DomS
DomS
August 8, 2014 6:50 pm

So… National interest anyone?

monkey
monkey
August 8, 2014 7:04 pm

@Gloomy Northern Boy
You mentioned the Kurds having improved relations with their northern NATO neighbours Turkey , I saw a report from a local blog claiming Turkish F16’s were straying into northern Iraq and bombing ISIS troops. The comments was full of people screaming that they should stay out of Iraqi airspace , I wonder whose side the commentators favoured.

IXION
August 8, 2014 7:12 pm

Look

Queen Elizabeth is still claiming to be queen of France (now there is a war I would go too).

I do not give a stuff about Hamas’ charter.

One of Ireland parties is still called ‘the rusty guns’ because it refused to give them up in the 19th.

You make peace with you enemies. I suggest you look that up in a dictionary. Potted version: – that means guys who want to kill you.

Israel knows that giving up the claim to Israel is Hamas’ s only card. It’s a bit like saying that Israel should disarm and return to 67 borders before talks can start.

No one gives up their cards until he negotiations are done. That’s how adults do it.

Simon257
Simon257
August 8, 2014 7:13 pm

@ WF

Thanks for clarifying that. There was me thinking they came to power peacefully!

@ Thread

For months, Hamas has been launching missiles and the UN has said and done nothing. It has allowed Hamas to turn every so-called UN schools into Ammon Dumps, HQ’s, Etc Etc.

Even a UN offial has admitted it:
http://www.truthrevolt.org/israel-revolt/senior-un-official-admits-hamas-using-their-gaza-facilites-launch-rockets

So why the righteous indignation!

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 7:15 pm

Dom, personal self preservation would be to carpet bomb the whole region and exile everyone living in it and declare it a no man’s land, if only to save my ears and mind about another Gaza Strip mortar attack. Hell, we could just copy and past the newspaper reports from all the previous times.

This song is really getting old.

monkey, I wonder if the Iraqis know that if Turkey had let ISIS convoys through their areas, Iraq would be in a heap lot more of trouble? :)

IXION, I don’t think the people involved in the conflict use the same logic trees that you do, which means that conclusions can be drastically different.

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 7:19 pm

IXION,

Your deceit knows no bounds. Hamas is utterly committed to its desire to destroy Israel and exterminate the Jews, its senior leadership is very clear about that and its foot soldiers are trying to execute it.

IXION
August 8, 2014 7:21 pm

Observer.

Using any kind of logic would be an improvement.

IXION
August 8, 2014 7:28 pm

Observer
As for use of logic I refer you to huhum’s comment.

I disagree with him: – therefore I am an anti semitic swine who’s deceite knows no bounds.

Not someone with a different view, not someone who us mistaken. I am an evil man with ulterior motive. Blood will flow and death reign until people like hohum chill out and take a longer view.

May I recommend Terry Pratchett on massacre and counter massacre in his work Thud.

Fedaykin
August 8, 2014 7:30 pm

You know Hohum I agree it is wrong that Hamas has in its own charter the destruction of Israel as a goal but to also say that the response is proportional or the fact that “only” 0.1% of Gaza’s population has been killed is cruelly asinine.

That 0.1% which you so glibly dismiss includes 671 civilians of which 414 are children does not move you at all? It is a bit harder to dismiss as minor or small when you put a figure and a face on the suffering of Children Hohum. Are you so cruel that you can dismiss that so easily?

Total civilian casualties in Israel during the same period…

3

Does that sound proportional? Or should I just glibly dismiss that as a tiny proportion of Israels population as you so easily to with Gaza’s. I mean those three Israeli civilian deaths only account for 0.000037% of Israels. Going on your thinking we shouldn’t care at all considering that is such a tiny sliver of their population. Seem fair or reasonable Hohum?

Yes Hamas is a rather unpleasant organisation, but it is also a fractured and disorganised. There are moderates within Hamas but bombing them back to the stone age does little to allow them the chance to push reason amongst their ranks.

In the end what has Israel actually achieved for all the blood let? A temporary cut in the number of rocket attacks, the destruction of some tunnels that will almost certainly be rebuilt. Finally yet another generation of Palestianians who only want to see Israel burn because of the suffering met upon them.

It is easy to grandstand Hohum but do you have a constructive solution to the circle of pain the Palestianians and Israelis have got themselves into?

To quote Joseph Michael Straczynski from his seminal TV series Babylon 5:

“It doesn’t matter who started it, it only matters that people (sic) are suffering”

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 7:32 pm

IXION,

You are terribly mistaken, I think that of you because of your obsessive and irrational attacks on Israel and desperate desire to make this an issue of religion. I cam to that conclusion because of the evidence you presented me. I hold no grudge with anyone who disagrees with me from a rational and informed position.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
August 8, 2014 7:36 pm

JH and NAB,

My point being that there are far better ways of achieving effect than by buying two honking great flat tops. Both of your options are sensible, but if we need a runway for the Voyager, we might as well put the FJs on the ground as well, and that then means we don’t then spend 6 billion plus on the boats, and have a far wider choice of jets (all of which can fly further and probably faster than Fat 35 Boy, carry more weapons, and are cheaper).

I will confidently state that there is only ONE scenario in which having the boats is necessary – those famous islands – and that threat is both unlikely to become real, and far more easily defeated by increased intelligence and the relatively cheap option of flying a rapid reaction light brigade down there to meet up with pre-dumped stores and whatever local mobility solution works best (quad bikes and Unimogs, probably).

I am now officially making a heroic attempt to combine a an epicly unstable near and Central Asia with my very favourite hobby horse ;)

DomS
DomS
August 8, 2014 7:46 pm

Interesting quote reported by bbc on their Iraq coverage-“It goes w/o saying, these airstrikes need to be totally pinpoint. Civilian casualties will rapidly erode any hope of this isolating IS”
This captures quite nicely the hipocrisy of public opinion I think where isis can behead and execute thousands of civilians or surrendered soldiers quite deliberately and proudly, on camera, but a handful of accidental casualties caused by us is an existential crisis. The unrealistic expectations around precision targeting really hamstring our ability to intervene anywhere these days. Proportionality is subjective I think. Hamas has tried to kill more israelis. Should the response be based on what they’ve aimed for or what they achieved? In reality both sides have their strategic goals, the bodycount proportionality element I think is only relevant to an external observer.

Fedaykin
August 8, 2014 7:49 pm

OK RT, but what if we can’t get local basing for those Voyagers and Fast Jets.

No carriers, no expeditionary warfare capability.

Which leads me to saying no need for an army really…what regiment to you want cut first.

IXION
August 8, 2014 7:59 pm

HOHUM

You still haven’t answered the question.

Your attempts to ‘play the man and not the ball’ are pathetic.

You refuse to deal with the issue from any point other than the Israel good and justified to do anything in self defence. Hamas bad and anything that happens to Gaza is just tough shit. Point of view.

When challanged you resort to abuse.

I cam play this game all day

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
August 8, 2014 8:00 pm

Fedaykin,

We seem to have managed well enough without marinised fast jets recently….while fighting a war.

TD, this is ridiculous. Midweek I was being asked things like Nine times ??? = 54, which actually required a couple of synapses to get themselves firing. Friday night, One times ??? = 5. It’s brilliant that you have configured the tool to get easier as the week goes by and tiredness increases, but I expect that on Monday morning when nominally at my sharpest, there will be a Quadratic to solve before I can make some suggestive and off-colour comment about a BBC lady journalist who makes GNB go weak at the knees. :)

Hohum
Hohum
August 8, 2014 8:16 pm

IXION,

I have made it perfectly clear that your question is ridiculous, and of no relevance to anything given that Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties and that only 0.1% of Gaza’s population (including a large number of combatants) have dies in the current operation.

What you need to explain is why you side with an organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the extermination of Jews.

Simon257
Simon257
August 8, 2014 8:19 pm

@ Thread

I have just seen
http://m.cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/barbara-boland/leader-isis-systematically-beheading-children-christian-genocide#.U-UDAegHTd4.twitter

Which led me to this:

WARNING VERY GRAPHIC!
http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481

I’m dreadfully sorry, to have say this, but I think it is time to put the boys from Poole and Hereford in there with a NO Prisoners order! And F#*k Galloway and Co!

Fedaykin
August 8, 2014 8:23 pm

@RT

Indeed we have but that isn’t a universal constant and you still haven’t answered the questions:

a) What if we can’t get local basing rights

b) What regiment do you want disbanding first…I can help maybe the the cavalry?

The FACT is we have now spent billions buying two carriers allowing us an independent expeditionary warfare capability. Whining after the event is rather pointless in my eyes. Would you rather we wasted that money now scrapping the capability or should we just get on with things and use what we as tax payers have paid for.

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 8:41 pm

IXION, I do feel your pain, I’ve been on the receiving end of his diatribes before especially on the tank design thread. Found it best to just ignore him, frothing loony that he is. (Actually don’t think he’s loony, just easily influenced by popularist media).

As for Israel and Palestine, that is a much more serious thorny problem. Another factor brought up previously by Fedaykin is that there are factions within factions. Hamas may want peace, but they can’t control the radical factions among themselves to even have a chance at it succeeding, and treaty can be scorched simply by having a disgruntled guy lug out a mortar onto his roof and slapping one round away into Israel, and unless Hamas can control itself, the chances of even a ceasefire lasting is low.

Israel isn’t a saint by any means, like all people, there are saints and devils hidden in all of us. Hamas seems to be hell bent on provoking the Israelis to let the devil in them lose. Mine is already out long ago when I hit the point of “Screw this, if the Israelis nuked them in revenge, I’m going to applaud.” At least it has the virtue of solving the problem once and for all. Right about now, I can put the whole conflict on record and play it back every one or two years without any real change in the situation and about the same effect.

John Hartley
John Hartley
August 8, 2014 9:09 pm

RT I have droned on that had it been my choice the RN would have got 3x 35000 ton super Invincibles or 2X 58000 ton CTOL enlarged CdG. However, we are where we are, so as Fed says, we have to make the best of it. We have 2 large austere ferries. Its not them, its what we put on them that counts. Hence my desire to get at least 24 F-35B quickly (& let the RAF nowhere near them), plus 10 heavylift CH-53K, 10 V-22 with the tanker kit & 5 Firescout UAV. Then the camels will be truly useful tools in our national armoury. Gunboat diplomacy, even.

monkey
monkey
August 8, 2014 9:12 pm

@Observer
I you to my earliercomment
“Isreal wants the citizens of Gaza to act in their own defence that if they see a Hama’s mortar/missile team setting up in their back yard or nearby roof they reach into their cupboard ,pullout their AK-47 and let fly.”
Hamas needs to clean its own house out of its radicals , they don’t listen to words just bullets so give them bullets.
If we are going to start quoting the old testament Bible which all three Abrahamic religions share,
“he who lives by the sword dies by the sword”

Observer
Observer
August 8, 2014 9:26 pm

monkey, that isn’t OT. :P

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 9:34 pm

@RT – the only thing that makes me go weak at the knees is trying to keep up with Junior on those narrow, wooded trails on the way down to the gondola; and the arthritis, obviously… :-) As I recall, you are the man with a penchant for newsreaders; weather-girls mind you, there’s a very different story…

Creaking Gloomy

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 9:37 pm

@Observer – Matthew 26:52. Happy to help… :-)

GNB

jedibeeftrix
jedibeeftrix
August 8, 2014 9:37 pm

i can only point out that in democracies people are responsible for their governments actions, for after all they have assented that another may act in their name, and thus that they will be bound by the result.

so, understanding that israel does everything it feels is reasonable to target militants and avoid civilians, if civilians die in the the legitimate act of defending against militant attacks conducted from within the populace, then it is a tragedy.

i think it is a tragedy, and i believe israel is foolish in being so callous of wider public opinion, but i support its right to proportionately defend it citizens; the first duty of the sovereign nation-state.

now, are the palestinian electorate adults of legally sound mind? the popular vision of them as reduced to the point where rational thought is impossible, depriving them of agency, is one i consider disrespectful.

there is a logical conclusion that flows from this; next time a hamas rocket team (or tolerated proxy), sets the toy store up next to your family home, why haven’t you run out with a bread knife with the intention of burying it in the face of the first fruitcake you can reach.

first time. tragic. second time, tragic. twelfth time… maybe setting off rockets from downtown gaza is appealing when a lynch mob gathers. is it easy for me to say sat in my nice part of rural britain, channeling the spirit of guy forkes? yes.

but, it is their society…

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
August 8, 2014 9:38 pm

Fedaykin,

Let me answer your questions directly.

1. What if we can’t get local basing rights? To which I would say “please point out ANYWHERE in the Atlantic or Indian Ocean littorals where that is remotely a possibility”, and if we cannot get basing rights from our long established and actively worked upon Allies, then we are probably not fighting for a cause worth fighting for. The sole exception, as I noted in my earlier post, being the FI, and even that only comes around once in a blue moon, and it is cheaper to have the intelligence to fly in a Brigade at the right time. Deterrence. So your question about basing rights is real, but vanishingly unlikely.

2. Which Regiment would I disband? None, not out of cap badge or service loyalty, but because boots on the ground or aircraft overhead or delivering logistics are actually what delivers HMG’s foreign policy when it is time to deliver effect. Not the Above Water Andrew, who are just about useful enough to find some drugs in the Carribean. Even the Marines don’t need the Andrew, they get flown into theatre by the Kevins and work quite happily alongside the Army.

To me, a better trade off that would keep the Andrew’s numbers up and contribute to, as opposed to cost, overall Defence capabilities would be to drop several boats and spend the money on an extra Brigade of Marines.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
August 8, 2014 9:43 pm

GNB,

Do not google carol kirkwood innuendo bingo. Actually, her voice is her best asset to me, but I’ll put up with the visuals if need be. ;)

Always liked a girl with a sense of humour and a natural smile.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
August 8, 2014 9:58 pm

Interesting that here is an example of where the UK should be getting involved and we are sitting on the fence and only providing recc, tankers, supplies, intelligence etc.

If ISIS are massacring minority groups, Christians included, then they should be stopped, with extreme prejudice.

HMG just never get it right. Especially as we are a P5 nation and should be involved in this.

Also, I found it rather ironic watching Obama on the Ten o clock news talking of acting to stop innocent civilians being killed, then BBC showed a Palestinian man burying his 10 year old son in the next item.

The usual scenario. ISIS makes all the news while as usual Palestinians die by the thousands, with every UN move to reign Israel in vetoed by the USA.

I agree Israel has the right to exist. I disagree with the extreme measures it uses and the vast body count, while the world looks the other way.

Mike Wheatley
Mike Wheatley
August 8, 2014 10:09 pm

I think Israel will be able to run Hamas out of rockets.
The result of that is interesting, as Hamas has made a big deal about refusing to end the rocket attacks until [concessions], and if they run out of rockets, then the rocket attacks end, with Hamas getting * status quo ante * plus massive losses * plus massive expenses *, i.e. a very visible loss.
(Yes they can keep firing mortars, but Israel has not demanded an end to mortar attacks, just an end to the rocket attacks.)
I predict Hamas to be massively unpopular after the conflict – we are starting to see signs of that already – and with a bit of luck, it might finish them off as an organisation able to control Gaza.
The hostility from the Egyptian, Jordanian, and Saudi media, towards Hamas, certainly helps this.

Cynically, given the lack of Jewish proto-militants in Europe, I guess it is on our national interest to appear to be “sympathetic to the Gazan cause in a non-specific way that doesn’t require us to actually do anything” in the mean time. (Especially if we can be secretly helping Israel and anti-Hamas Arabs behind the scenes.)
Maybe that is the subconscious motive for the peace campaigners? (It seems to fit the evidence.)

Gloomy Northern Boy
Gloomy Northern Boy
August 8, 2014 10:40 pm

@RT – For a Gentleman of ancient lineage and impeccable magenta trousering, you do sometimes have remarkably low tastes in popular entertainment…although I must agree the lady herself is perfectly charming…quite cheered me up :-)

Un-Gloomy

IXION
August 8, 2014 11:00 pm

MW

There are a dozen different ways Israel could play this and get better results.

Hamas is unpopular with other Arab nations because it won’t play proxy arm of their state. Like good little boys.

Isis is getting millions like AQ from Saudis. Who really need to look at their plans coz they are in for a real surpise when both turn on them.

Saudis are so scared if Iran that when Iran gets the bomb the Saudis will get it to and tell anyone who argues to do one. In the meantime they will tear appart Syria and Iraq to keep the Shites down

Hamas refuse to play Saudi and Egyptian rules so in the time honoured tradition of Muslim brotherhood they are trying to get the Israelis to do them in.

Israel has made the classic mistake of leaving a people with nothing to loose. if you got nothing to loose and everything to gain you fight because you have no other choice. There is no Gazzan economy. So there are no businesses. There are no business links with Israel to loose. So who Cares if Hamas runs the dump? When you live in a smashed up ghetto the guys throwing something, anything, back at the people imprisoning you are likly to be seen as heros.

Just as the war has pushed Israel to the right, the fact that it would have the same effect on gazzans seem to surprise people.

Best tactic Hamas has is to keep the war going try to get the Israelis to invade fully and re occupy. Snipe the odd soldier make Israel keep its reservists called up. Make sure they contune to go wild and kill the odd civilian so the worlds press can carry on hating them. And wait.

Wait for the Israeli economy to crumble, wait for the Americans to get fed up with supplying cash and arms. Wait for Israel’s to get fed up with body bags comming back. Should take 10 years or so. it worked the first time

The beauty of it is, that the tougher the Israelis get, the more of Gazza they flatten, the more women and children they kill, the quicker it happens…. It will only take a sharpville, or Amritar massacre or two. Well worth it from Hamas perspective.

The Israelis are playing the game to Hamas rules.

Here’s another way. Open the crossings encorage economic ties. Aceept the fact that for a few years terrorists will kill Israeli citizens.

But.

When Gazzans have jobs in Israel busineses dependant on Good relations with Israel then see how popular Hamas is………….

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
August 8, 2014 11:28 pm

GNB,

I am just a simple country lad with simple tastes. And when on the tank park (a couple of decades ago, in my case) we didn’t discuss opera, but rather voted upon totty of the month after that month’s Page 3s had been used to wallpaper the inside of the Troop Cage. Or worse than Page 3s, that being the 80s and dodgy German porn freely available.

That said, I was once ordered by a British one star to go to the ballet to watch a performance by a touring English ballet company to Zagreb in the mid 90s, during the Yugoslavian civil war. All well and good, a bit dull, but I took with me the glamorous Fumie, a Japanese-Brazilian UN employee who was the Force Commander’s secretary who I quite fancied, so we had a fun evening out.

Next day the Serbs managed to rocket Zagreb from Sector South, about 70 kms away. We heard the few explosions, then news of casualties. Must have been a total fluke, the rockets managed to very nearly hit the ballet company’s tour bus, causing smashed windows and about a dozen casualties. Next thing, the phone on my desk lights up and goes into meltdown with both the Embassy and the FCO demanding I get out there to give a report (the Embassy was in lockdown, but they thought that I who had a pistol and a UN beret was worth risking).

So I went to see the ballet dancers in hospital, sort of reassured them that HMG were on the case, got a Sitrep from a doctor, and bought them a big bunch of fruit.

Hohum
Hohum
August 9, 2014 12:32 am

IXION,

Quit with the fiction, it is most unbecoming to be seen demonstrating your ignorance through such absurd remarks as the diatribe you just produced which unsurprisingly includes Hamas being allowed to kill Jews- you are completely transparent.

Observer
Observer
August 9, 2014 12:46 am

Hohum, quit trying to pick a fight, he’s entitled to an opinion, same as you.

IXION, you’re too optimistic. There are Palestinians working in Israel, there are economic ties, but when someone prefers to kill you rather than talk to you, it’s hard to even start a business. It’s something like trying to open a Japanese restaurant in China post WWII. The hatred is even bigger than the profit margin and is begging to be firebombed. You don’t get it because your personality leans towards calculation, logic and profit while theirs rely almost on pure emotion. An example would be, is there anyone you hate enough to blow yourself and him + family up at the same time and damn the law? Or want so badly that you would kill whoever gets in your way to obtain? That is the mindset they have, which is almost the total polar opposite of yours. That is why any solution you may propose will be totally unacceptable to them. You don’t empathise or feel the way they do, so how do you know what to retain or cut to make a compromise acceptable to them?

Ali
Ali
August 9, 2014 3:11 am

IXION,

I swear the French throne has not been claimed by the British monarchs since George III dropped his claim and removed the fleurs de lis from the Royal coat of arms and proceeded to recognise the French Republic under the Treaty of Amiens in 1802?

IXION
August 9, 2014 6:41 am

Perhaps your right Observer. I say perhaps.

If fuckwits like Hohum in charge. Best idea for Gaza is to go for a victory rather than a deal. And for Hamas to keep doing what it is doing and drag the Israeli in like I suggested. Not that I approve you understand.

All Politicians are the Same
All Politicians are the Same
August 9, 2014 7:18 am

Which airbase are the Americans using this time? Ogh they are not, they are using 100,000 tonnes of floating US real estate. No need for basing rights or host country support.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
August 9, 2014 8:42 am

APATS,

And could QEC plus F35B do the same? No. Not enough legs. Which makes it an expensive waste of time.

I really wish that brains had been issued at Dartmouth when they were cadets in the 1970s to the dark blue two stars of the Noughties. They didn’t understand the coefficient between Britain’s budget and effective international power projection, their horizons too limited. They have seriously cocked up.

All Politicians are the Same
All Politicians are the Same
August 9, 2014 8:48 am

@RT

Checked the combat radius of a Super Hornet lately? Or the mission profiles or even the launch position?

Mark
Mark
August 9, 2014 8:53 am

Can c17 and c130s operate from US aircraft carriers? Oh you must mean the two f18s did they need a tanker?

Lord Jim
Lord Jim
August 9, 2014 8:54 am

The current state of the world makes me really want to kick our politicians up the ass! They have got to decide if we are to have a role in the world or retreat back to ols blighty. In the former case they have GOT to realise that to have a say we need to be able to back it up and that means they are going to have to spend more on defence and the money is there if they choose to do so. If they choose the latter then we only need a few fighter squadrons, the TA and corvettes partly manned by the Fisheries Agency.

As for Gaza, well why don’t the UN ask Egypt to go in as a peace keeping force to disarm Hammas etc. That would really take the wing out of the left wing loonies who think wars can be fought without civilian casualties and that it is alright for “Freedom Fighters” to hide behind there own population.

Turning to ISIS, well we are often told that the extremists are a minority in the Muslim world, well let the majority sort them out. After all why have they bought all the military hardware they have? The west is told it is not welcome in the middle east and blamed for all its woes. The only reason we should ever get involved there is to protect our oil needs and if a country tries to use the oil weapon against the west as they did in 1973, then we take action. But the first thing we need to do is stop selling most of these countries our latest military tech. WE haven’t learnt form Iran and it will come back to haunt us, like ISIS using captured M1A2s against their previous owners after the crews abandoned them. Contrary to Extremeist propoganda the main killer of muslims over the past few decades has been other muslims by a factor of over 10:1 vs those cause by western action. The Middle East needs to sort its own problems out so we should let them just get on with it.

IXION
August 9, 2014 8:54 am

Ali

Very sad to hear that. Of course income tax was introduced to pay for the French wars. We are still paying it so there is still hope!

IXION
August 9, 2014 9:18 am

Lord Jim

Right on. I agree completely

Dunservin
Dunservin
August 9, 2014 9:42 am

Someone saw the utility of one-shop, one-stop carrier-borne air:

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=82656

Navy F/A-18s Strike ISIL Targets
Story Number: NNS140808-08 Release Date: 8/8/2014 12:33:00 PM

ARABIAN GULF (NNS) — Two U.S. Navy F/A-18 Super Hornets assigned to Carrier Air Wing 8 embarked on USS George H. W. Bush (CVN 77) struck Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant targets near Erbil, Iraq, Aug. 8.

Bush is operating in the Arabian Gulf on a scheduled deployment to U.S. 5th Fleet.

The F/A-18s dropped 500 pound laser-guided bombs against ISIL artillery targets. Carrier Air Wing 8 aircraft assigned to the Bush carrier strike group include the “Golden Warriors” of Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 87 (F/A-18); “Valions” of VFA-15 (F/A-18); “Fighting Black Lions” of VFA-213 (F/A-18E/F); “Tomcatters” of VFA-31 (F/A-18E); “Bear Aces” of Airborne Early Warning Squadron (VAW) 124 (E-2C Hawkeye); “Garudas” of Electronic Attack Squadron (VAQ) 134 (EA-18G); “Tridents” of Helicopter Sea Combat Squadron (HSC) 9 (MH-60S); “Rawhides” of Fleet Logistics Support Squadron (VRC) 40 (C-2A); and the “Spartans” of Helicopter Maritime Strike Squadron (HSM) 70 (SH-60B/MH-60R).

The F-35B would be unlikely to require its stealth attributes for such a mission, certainly while over Turkey or most of Iraq, so I imagine drop tanks would boost its range considerably. These would allow it to reach Erbil easily with a large weapon load from a carrier in either the Eastern Med or the NPG (Northern Persian Gulf). Conformal tanks would even enable it to retain its full LO (Low Observable) characteristics although these are unlikely to be required against the ISIL targets concerned. If it gains an AAR (Air to Air Refuelling) capability over the next few years (e.g. from a carrier-borne buddy or V-22 Osprey), not even extra tanks will be necessary.

It should also be borne in mind that stand-off weapons like Storm Shadow can be launched around 300 miles from the target but these negate the benefits of ‘eyes-on’ over the target area.

A Different Gareth
A Different Gareth
August 9, 2014 10:04 am

Red Trousers said: “Bugger. We should have bought planes with a longer range.”

Nimrod. Fully new, lots of them and used as bombers.

WiseApe
August 9, 2014 10:24 am

An airfield that moves about – imagine that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhwHG2nwvF4#t=55

Christ I got the sum wrong. Any chance of some general knowledge questions?

Gloomy Northern Boy