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January 2, 2013 7:21 pm

Interesting that Starstreak is listed as part of the layered defence; does that mean their planning on using it at sea; or is it a place holder for CAMM?

ALL Politicians are the Same
ALL Politicians are the Same
January 2, 2013 7:29 pm


Flicking through the slides and looking at the potential platforms for the air burst ammo I am not certain that the layered defence is not illustrating both Land and Maritime environments.

Star Streak was the basis for the development of the LMM which is what MSI want to bolt onto the 30MM Bushmaster for the SIGMA mk 2 mount.

January 2, 2013 8:11 pm

APATS, yes, definitely looks like it is about projectiles more than the exact environment where they are to be used
– 2005 publishing date; laser guided 70 mm rockets only became mass production ready in 2010 (after the trials @ China Lake were consistently [v] good)
– but when was it than the sainted Absalon became the first vessel to have the AHEAD-armed Millennium system onboard?
– the Swiss labels on the rounds are clearly indicated
– but the diagrams do not factor in the nature of that system (perhaps only the rounds were on trial) as the 15 vs 50m difference in scatter and penetration is totally irrelevant.
– any object approaching would be flying through ‘a tube’ of such rounds exploding (can’t be bothered now to do the maths between the approach speed – even if manoeuvreing in the final approach- and the rate of fire, which I think is only bettered by the 27 mm Mauser)

January 2, 2013 8:38 pm

Regarding the 15 vs 50m difference in spread and energy, why is it irrelevant? The target sets given in the presentation are surface-based and essentially stationary compared to the shells.

January 2, 2013 9:29 pm

Mr. Fred,
“surface-based and essentially stationary “, yes, the stuff of all manufacturer videos, whether for gun, shell or both

I was trying to say that fast-forwarding from 2005, something like a Millennium *with* ahead would be … sorry for this…*way ahead* what was tried out then

And “reality” was only two years away

January 3, 2013 8:56 am

@ALL Politicians are the Same says:

“Star Streak was the basis for the development of the LMM”

Not entirely true. The current LMM is specific to HVM. However, this type of lightweight launcher mounting dates back to the 1980s, (first used with Javelin if not Blowpipe) The Battery Commander who invented it got a good reward from the Defence Suggestions Scheme.

Mike Edwards
Mike Edwards
January 3, 2013 9:59 am

Having seen the 35mm Oerlikon in action on an Absalon, I’m a fan. But like many things we are re-inventing the wheel. For close in work sub 2000yrds then a 4.5″ with CANNISTER Shot would sort out that problem. At range VT Airburst Shell, we have failed to invest in larger calibre guns systems that can fire “Cargo/smart” munitions this would allow for longer range interdiction of Swarms.

To be honest I think a Flying Gun Drone is the way to go, it gives you a BDA option and also PID (Positive ID) before you go to town on a group of smuggler vessels crossing the Hormuz (Yes they do this, and yes they do it formation causing everyone to get tense when they show up on radar or optically). I know the Firescout has not gone well, but with more development this could be incredibly capable, especially combined with terminal laser guidance against targets/command nodes within a swarm for Laser Guided Rounds (like the 155mm Excalibur type rounds). A 4.5″/114mm Laser guided round with inflight guidance would be a good start, and the production of Close Range VT Cannister rounds.

ALL Politicians are the Same
ALL Politicians are the Same
January 3, 2013 11:26 am


I agree with what you are saying but it will not happen. The reason, as per usual we are the only people that use our main weapon ammo. Be it 120MM rifles or 4.5 we have ended up being virtually the sole user so there is no export potential and little motivation for anyone to spend the money on research.
Especially as there are already in service solutions. The 76MM can fire anti surface proximity fused ammo at a far higher rate than 4.5 and to a good enough range. The STRALES mount can fire high velocity guided dart rounds which will neutralise a FIAC at your 2,000 yd example in 1.5 seconds. The 57MM Mk 110 can provide rapid fire with a range of clever fusing options.
Then we have the gun/missile combos entering service allowing a missile engagement of a FAC at ranges in excess of 2-3NM. I am afraid that it would not be viable to try and develop an extra system.

I am just hoping that when T26 enters service and the T45 have their first major refit we have gone to a 5 inch solution and that if we decide to build an OPV/Corvette class that we make sure that it has a 76MM mount. At least then we can join in with ammo research and breakthroughs more widely.