Vote leave or vote remain, but please vote knowing that Britain is Great…
Anyone who thinks otherwise is obviously uneducated, or French.
Without Great Britain the world would be a poorer place in every regard.
Let’s just remind ourselves why…
We gave the world democracy, common law, the Bailey Bridge, tanks, gravity, the worlds most common second language, Led Zeppelin, fair play, queuing, the backhoe loader, metal bridges, the Magna Carta, modern economics, the industrial revolution and Hollywood villains.
The Beatles, Morris Dancing, penicillin, HP sauce, the World Wide Web (you’re welcome), One Direction, Carry On and Simon Cowell.
Tea drinking, chicken tikka masala, Shakespeare, Winston Churchill, battered Mars Bars, the BBC, the mini (car, roundabout and skirt), the Spice Girls, Darwin, football, Marmite, rugby, cricket, golf, tennis, ping pong, pubs, tea, sharp suits, Spitfires and the fact there are homosexuals, lesbians and transsexuals in the armed forces and you know what, no one gives two shits.
With our friends and allies stood against the Nazis, invented the railway, sarcasm, MRI scanners, the screw propeller and a proper breakfast, been on the right side of the Napoleonic, First, Second and Cold War and gave the world steam power, the Mexeflote, Wallace and Gromit, roast beef dinners, the Dyson, Doctor Who, television, telephones, the Rolls-Royce Merlin, text messaging, GMT, electric motors, lawn mowers, the Land Rover, spotted dick, sewage systems, the thermos flask, the jet engine, carbon fibre, the flushing toilet and polyester (just for the RAF), pencils, radar and the Bank of France (ha ha ha).
The correct method of holding an umbrella
The fighter aircraft, battleship, aircraft carrier, drill that doesn’t look ridiculous, proper salutes, the torpedo, sonar, underwater knife fighters (special forces), the armoured vehicle boiling vessel (for the tea), the Paralympic Games, independent air forces (yep, sorry about that one), the equal sign and gin & tonic.
Did I mention, tea
I am not actually a fan of the term ‘place in the world’ but it does serve as a reasonable place to start a conversation about what we stand for and who we are.
The UK is one of the worlds largest economies, has world-class research, science, engineering, culture, finance and technology industry’s. European Geostrategy even ranked the UK the worlds only global soft super-power, above the USA. We occupy one the UN’s few permanent security council seats and have a disproportionate influence on world governance and business, technology and security standards.
Our military has an incredible reputation and most nations know that whilst we may seem a little soft on the outside we are not to be messed with. Trident, a conventional military force with genuine global reach and a range of capabilities honed in numerous conflicts means that despite recent problems it would be a very brave nation that took us on directly.
The UK, therefore, has a deep well of hard and soft power from which to draw.
There is an ongoing obsession with putting nations into league tables and any casual online search will reveal a plethora of indices, but the bottom line is basic, the UK is one of the worlds leading nations by any measure you care to use.
We should have no illusions about our relationships with the USA, Germany or France and others. Although we are allies and firm friends should not expect anything but self-interest from them, to think otherwise is delusional.
We should not describe ourselves as a bridge to anything or anyone, we are more than that and have the ability to act as an important nation in our own right at the heart of global affairs whether we are part of the EU or not.
The world is changing at a rapid pace and if Great Britain wants to be safe, prosperous and influential our outlook must be outward looking, in all the forms that this might take. We might be an island nation, but we are as interconnected as any, reliant on a complex web of relationships, alliances and connections.
But no matter what, democracy and the ability to govern ourselves is the most important of all things.
So when it comes to voting on the 23rd, if you are voting, please vote not from fear, but from the knowledge this nation of ours is called Great Britain for a bloody good reason and nothing to do with Brittany!
@SD
Newsflash!
First evidence of Brexit causing destruction of Europe!
Hot air from debate thought to cause sea level rise. Balkans submerged…
McZ, the problem with the “for us or against us” analogy of the common market is that you do not really need to be in a political union to have free trade, all you need is a free trade agreement. You don’t need to be married to someone to do business with them, otherwise the law needs to be changed to allow polygamy. :)
Sorry mr fred, the last wasn’t aimed at you, collateral damage. Oops.
Does this mean we get to keep our own fish? At £13.90 a kg for cod in Tesco’s (the fish , not the game) its a joke.
As we have a huge share of EU fisheries we will need more Fisheries protection vessels so we best order more quickly to keep the Spaniards out , oops we already have (I can’t believe it was a deliberate act of foresight by the Government though) .
The UK needs to join the European Free Trade Association as are Iceland , Norway , Switzerland and liechtenstein.
http://britishseafishing.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/RS-European-Union-EEZ-C-Robert-Laymont-1.png
Oh , I have to mention we owe that bulge to the northwest to a man with an amazing story (Hollywood/Elestree listening?) Tom McClean , first man to live on Rockall and claim it for the UK amongst other firsts , solo row the Atlantic, sail the Atlantic in the shortest boat 9’9″ then again in the same boat at 7’9″ courtesy of some deft work with a chainsaw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_McClean
Either you apply for the common market for free move of products and people, or you abstain. If the UK doesn’t want to abstain, the central promise of the Leave-camp and the central argument for people in the lower wage sector was build upon lies. Btw, where are those heroes? Invisible, no plan, no responsibility. And, let there be no mistake, Britains days as a soft super power are counted if a right-wing government comes into power, with the largest part of the soft power suppliers being pro EU anyway. Hard power… well, if the AAA falls, then refinancing debt will eat any single cent sent to the EU, and send it to Canary Wharf instead of BAE. And those ex-Bristol-Siddeley workers should rather fear for the future of Airbus in Filton.
Somebody needs to stop this.
Observer,
Good point. Although I would still call it invective*
I’d just prefer it if we could have a discussion without each side calling the other stupid. The whole “you are with us or against us” adversarial style is not, in my experience, conducive to actually finding out what the problem is.
* which has nothing to do with the points being made. The more recent post is better
I won’t exactly call it invective but calling for calm then singling out someone by name for negative attention sort of goes counter to the result you’re aiming for….
Cause and effect thing you know. :(
I don’t exactly agree with his conclusions as well, but there are ways to disagree without driving a conversation downhill.
If you think thats invective you haven’t seen anything yet. I am no diplomat and have little interest in massaging peoples ignorance; there are some very key issues with the notion of Scottish independence at this point:
1) It doesn’t even meet the EU entry criteria
2) Even if it did it would have to accept the Euro
3) It would massively dislocate trade with England, far and away Scotland’s largest trading partner
4) At just 1% of the EU’s total population Scotland’s “democratic deficit” would be considerably worse inside the EU without the UK than it is now
5) In reality Scotland will have to leave the EU with the UK then apply as an independent state to join the EU with all the entry requirements that go with it- Brussels has already said this
6) There is still no guarantee that Scotland could even join the EU, countries like Spain could easily wield a veto
APATS and others may not want to hear it but Nicola Sturgeon is selling them a particularly toxic brand of snake oil. Britain may or may not come to regret Brexit but Scotland would be making an even more catastrophic error if it left the UK at this juncture.
Yeah…..
Going back to an earlier point, I don’t think Hohum’s invective is going to have a positive effect on APATS.
The SNP is deranged and hateful, it always has been but even by its normal standards it is being particularly vile and stupid at the moment. Scotland leaving the UK whilst the UK was inside the EU was stupid, Scotland leaving the UK when its out of the EU is even more stupid. The EU will force Scotland to meet membership criteria it does’t even come close to, force it to adopt the Euro and with a population of just over 5 million it will have virtually no influence over the EU. At the same time it would assemble a hard border along its only land border and against its largest trading partner.
Frankly everyone needs to clm down, the politicians ranting and raving are all physically and emotionally exhausted, tempers are running high and everyone needs to take a rest and a step back and come back to this with a clear head. Sturgeon though is a dangerous lunatic and a serious threat to the wellbeing of the Scottish people, its deeply troubling that someone like APATS has fallen for bile and dishonesty.
@JH – All great suggestions that would be fantastic for the UK and your final flourish of signing it in Edinburgh is pretty inspired, really impressive thinking, but there is the counter-force constantly at work of the EU wanting to send out a “don’t anyone else try this” to the other member states; anything too favourable for the UK risks doing that. Then again, I think your focus on treaty change implies that many of those benefits could be given to all member states and if that was done wherever possible (obviously things like rebates will be country-specific) that could lessen the “don’t anyone else try this” issue.
Ultimately I agree with your opening sentence though, we do all need to calm down a bit and wait to see what sort of deal comes from the EU side. Unfortunately it does seem to have to be that way round at the moment because we have a total power vacuum in the UK at the moment with leadership disarray in both the Conservative and Labour parties. That needs to be fixed on both sides pretty quickly.
JH, I’m not so sure that is such a good idea. Sooner or later someone is going to ask why should the UK get such exclusive terms and conditions when everyone else has to lump it. Sure, the UK is a valuable partner but there comes a point when dissatisfaction will override benefit. Let us be honest, the UK is already getting a lot of privileges that even full members of the EU don’t, and yet the Leave vote won, other countries are not going to be happy about it if they sat down and had a good hard think about why should the UK be treated special.
In a paraphrase, in a federation, all countries are equal. Some more equal than others.
Not a very good state of affairs to be in.
I think everyone should calm down, until we see what sort of deal Merkel can put together to offer Britain.
The Juncker faction would want to punish Britain by just offering the worst bits of the EU, while denying the good bits. That will not work, as any new deal would have to be passed by a second referendum.
Considering the close 52-48 vote, what would be enough to swing the voters?
Some ideas that might do it.
The permanent opt out from “ever closer union” & the Euro, get put into treaty change, rather than Cameron’s easily overrode promise.
The £2 billion a year MrsT rebate that Blair gave away for nothing, should be reinstated to pay for infrastructure needed to meet stresses caused by immigration.
To answer immigration concerns, Britain should get its own versions of the Brussels approved Italian law, that allows the Italians to deport EU citizens that break the law or indulge in anti social activity. Also a British version of the Eire Trespass Act, that stopped the worst elements of the traveller community.
Also Cameron should have listened that he would not get a 4 year delay in EU citizens claiming benefits in Britain. They did say months would be ok, so bring in an 11 month rule.
A declaration by the EU that it will not stop a rescue or the modernisation of the UK steel industry.
Put this in a treaty & sign it in Scotland, so the Scots do not feel excluded. The Edinburgh Treaty perhaps?
Elizzar, I don’t think you should be angry at what Sturgeon is doing; they are a separatist party, and Sturgeon is jumping on a political opportunity like any good politician should.
Earnestly rushing about and saying what should immediately be done is clearly meant to put pressure on the government; but Cameron’s resignation has taken the wind out of their sails. It could take a few weeks, or two or three months, to anoint Cameron’s successor. Sturgeon surely can’t keep the pace up that long. Within a couple of weeks time she’ll be presenting regular chit-chat between MEPs as high-level EU negotiations.
Back to defence, projected spending and equipment programs delivering beyond 2020 were heavily dependent on Osborne’s economic forecasts – which have proven over-optimistic a number of times in recent years.
If this EU business has any negative effect on the economy at all, that 2% on defence is not going to live up to expectations. Anyone for a cut in frigates? Or perhaps MIV would be in your sights.
Julian, never trust Moody’s (or any other rating agency in fact), they are always behind the curve and too swayed by “popular opinion”. I’m actually on BUY for the UK, there is nothing structurally wrong with it, the current dip is simply due to market fear that will die off once all the rhetoric dies down. I’m actually a lot more positive with the UK outside of the EU, but then that may be due to cultural historical antipathy towards federations.
Smaller, leaner, more flexible.
Look at what happened after the Federation of Malaya kicked us out. In 1973, the currency was 1:1. Now it’s 1:3 our way due to a tighter monetary policy control.
At least now you are the captain of your own ship, you can’t have it sunk by someone else’s stupidity, Greek, Spanish, German or French. On the other hand, you also got no one else to blame in the future lol.
APATS,
In isolation perhaps it is benign, but read with the others?
There are a great many pithy quote regarding the foibles of democracy; without repeating them here the best I can do is point out that removing yourself from dissenting opinions does nothing to broaden your horizons and that the best way to get your point across is not by demonising the “other side”
@Mr Fred
I do not see it as threatening in the slightest and it was certainly not intended to be.
Was not even warning one stuff.
What we have is a huge Democratic deficit best described by Sir Tom Device in a piece in the Herald.
We have grown apart and seem to share differing values. Time for one of the oldest countries in the world to resume it’s rightful place.
@SD, @Observer – If by extra money you mean the saving on the EU contributions, finally pretty much agreed by both sides to be about £8.5 billion net per year after deducting the UK rebate and money that came back to the UK via EU funding of UK projects, I’m afraid that consequences of Brexit are very likely to more than offset that saving for many years at least.
I did some calculations this morning based on current issued index-linked debt (fixed rate doesn’t count because interest rate is locked in) plus expected new-issue index-linked and fixed rate over the coming few years. If one then accepts that the decline in the pound is likely to import extra inflation (which BoE is expecting) and possible credit rating downgrades (Moody’s has already downgraded us to negative outlook and S&P has said a downgrade is likely) increasing fixed interest rates (which will apply to new issue only) then a 2% increase in inflation plus a 1% increase in fixed rate interest translates to an additional £8.61 billion required each year to service government debt. That’s before you even start factoring in lower tax revenues due to banking industry relocating high earners out of London (Morgan Stanley already rumoured to be planning to move 2,000 to Dublin & Frankfurt after the Brexit result and, although denying it, the denial is carefully worded to say they’re not planning any immediate action. They are already on record prior to the vote that they would look at moving staff on Brexit).
Basically the Brexiteers have pressed self-destruct on the UK economy. OK, it clearly isn’t going to be anything like destroyed but the damage done initially will be significant and it is unclear whether this vision of an envigirated, unfettered global trading powerhouse that emerges will ever happen and, if it does, how much damage will need to be repaired before we end up with a net benefit. All in all the UK has just made a very bad decision.
APATS,
Your post at 15:28 is quite threatening. Was that intended?
TD,
Enforced change of email. The old one’s still active for a week or so if you want to check
SD, unless each and every one get a check from the government monthly or annually, I have my doubts that the common man will be seeing much of that money. I don’t mind reasons for leaving the EU, but to say that every man will get $X amount from leaving is a misrepresentation of the issue, most won’t even see that money. Maybe as a tax rebate or a tax reduction, but hard cash? Not likely.
And tax reduction?… Maybe, but I have my doubts. When has any politician liked to lower taxes when they didn’t have to, even those that use it as a campaign promise? :)
Perhaps those north of the border are pissed because of the EU funding they will lose .The 2014-2020 EU allocation was 941m euros.
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/support/17404/EuropeanStructuralFunds
They have no need to worry as Westminster, on top of the 27% extra each Scottish citizen receives more than an English one from the Barnett formula , will make up the loss from the net 11.342bn euros of contributions we will gain from leaving.
http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/member-countries/unitedkingdom/index_en.htm
And whatever happened to Scotland raising taxes locally , it has had the abilitity raise/lower income tax by 3% since 1999 but hasn’t used this ability . Council tax has been frozen for 8 years in Scotland and tracks Westminster guideline exactly for business tax except giving relief to big business’s.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35470086
I’m not exactly sure if a pro-independent Scotland vote is going to be better the 2nd time around. IIRC, the EU votes were about a 38/62 percent split? That’s about a 12 percent majority, but there is one major caveat, that all the 12 percent is pro-independent Scotland. It’s very possible that a fraction of the voters are the ones in the middle ground. Pro-UK but anti-EU. For all we know, the vote could even go the other way, people that are pro-independence but anti-EU might simply go “No thanks!” just to stay out of the EU.
Reminds me of the old Venn diagrams we had in school.
So technically we can have 4 factions:
Pro-independence/Pro-EU
Pro-Independence/Anti-EU
Anti-Independence/Pro-EU
Anti-independence/Anti-EU
And a possible last faction: “A pox on all your houses!! Get lost and don’t disturb me!!” :)
A lot has been made in the media of how the Scottish have voted how Londoners voted Northern Irish voted how the young were somehow done over by old people. It’s becoming farcical, we’re all British citizens no matter were we live our age colour or creed we all had 1 vote which was just as important as anyone else’s. Some people may not like it but that’s democracy in action I’ve never seen so many sore losers.
APATS much as I respect your professional views as a Warfare Officer you are now frothing: take a chill pill.
@Elizzar “Let’s take a big deep breath, be respectful and reasonable to reach other, and not rush anything in the next few weeks.”
Precisely
The initial demographics are in, and far from being “Made in Chelsea watching Essex boys rioting in Marseille”, it’s a group of voters that are far, far more surprising. Turns out they voted to Remain as well. (Probably because they like getting pissed in Marseille…).
Leavers: It’s ex Bristol Siddley engineers. It’s ex British Leyland workers. It’s Sheffield steel smelters. It’s ex Yorkshire colliers. It’s Nurses who worked under the Matron system. It’s former members of the Merchant Navy. Sailors from a 40+ escort Navy. Airmen from a 17 squadron force. Soldiers who participated in a single, sustained, 28,000 troop contribution. It’s an age group that voted in 1975 to join the European Economic Community in the first place.
It’s also those living in the parts of the country that during the timeline of the EEC and EU (with us a part of or not, with or without opt-outs) have suffered the closure of industries, the removing of railways and infrastructure, the shutting of trading ports, devastated fishing communities, the green-tax hit oil industry, cities where shipbuilding was sacrificed on the altar of keeping Remain voters elsewhere happy, the locations with the fewest MP’s per capita and those places receiving the least investment from either Westminster or the EU.
Those locations who do not feel they benefit from the City financial sector or the Single Market, who feel that regenerating areas under the flag of the EU brand with strings attached using the UK’s own money is inefficient, who may be able to sell into the Free Market of the rest of the planet if they were able.
Without constituency voting system protecting the establishment and the status quo, a directly proportional vote has been held and the areas that have been neglected and ignored for, at the least 30 years, have received a 1:1 weighting in a voting booth.
Now…
No matter which way you voted or which “area” your political class is claiming voted the other way, we’ve had our ships burned. But not TD’s precious bridges.
There’s no going back to the EU the way it was. It’s right there in the referendum Act: No takebacks (the technical term for it, I believe).
Even if Scotland and Northern Ireland (who also need to respect their own not-insignificant volume of Leave voters) “referend” to leave the UK and join the EU, they still can’t Remain as it is now with the veto’s and opt-outs that the UK used to (currently?) have/has. Is France/Germany going to let Scotland into their top-table veto club? They’d have to apply and will be looking at a second fiddle arrangement akin to the latest Eastern European joiners.
Is that a better position than the UK could negotiate in it’s exit?
Because on the other hand if – and it is indeed a big if – the UK as a whole (including Scotland and NI) can negotiate a close to a status quo financial and trade arrangement with Europe as possible for our existing primary industries, there are regions of the UK that are itching to do some form of business, almost any business, and the rest of the world open to trade that the EU has been unable, unwilling or just not interested allowing us to open up deals with.
There is a chance, if we work hard, that we can preserve the majority of our trade with Europe and export to the globe at the same time.
Our markets have not tanked overnight as the doomsayers claimed: The FTSE 100 actually closed 2% up on last week believe it or not. Germany’s Dax crashed twice as far (-6% vs -3%) on the day. Our currency has fallen in dollar terms, but only dipped against an also-slumping Euro. There’s carbon-taxes and tariffs that can be dropped immediately to ameliorate the oil purchasing power of a dipped GBP/USD rate so that pump prices don’t rocket. Plenty of options for a historically opportunistic nation with a reasonably high education level and a majority skilled workforce.
Every change gets worse before it gets better. You just have to work hard to shorten the timescale of the dip.
As Clarkson, a Remain voter allegedly, has tweeted:
https://twitter.com/JeremyClarkson/status/746350798112710660
APATS. Remember the UK vote was 52 to 48%. I think Merkel has already hinted at some sort of associate membership in the EU for the UK. Scotland should keep its powder dry, until it sees what sort of a deal Merkel makes to the whole UK. Then is the time to make a decision.
@BB
Wait and watch. You totally fail to grasp what has just happened and what is about to happen.
As for support you are so distant it is incredible. If I am going Yes and a lot of my professional colleagues too then it is a stick on.
Brain Black – I think you are making some excellent points. I am very angry at the posturing of Sturgeon as it is not helping anyone really. I’ve just read Merkel has come out with some very reasonable statements about not rushing things or being retaliatory. The SNP are out to cause trouble. As you say, over 33 million UK citizens voted, and 17 million plus voted to leave. That’s around three times the total population of Scotland alone. Unfortunately this is how democracy works and one side must lose. There were 2.7 million votes cast in Scotland in the EU vote. There were 1.7 million for Remain and 1 million for Leave. In the independence vote 3.6 million turned out; the Yes number was around the same as Remain – 1.6 million – but No was 2 million. So around a million-ish less voters in the EU vote turned out. I’m not saying they would all be Leave, but they might have been. We don’t know. I recall the Scottish referendum and the finance claims etc. In reality, if Scotland had gone independent, it would already be bankrupt, as those figures were widely optimistic. If Scotland were to leave now (or in the next year) what has changed in this regard? With the rest of the UK leaving, the EU budget will be diminished and so there will not be magic pots of gold to support the Scottish economy. Of course, that assumes Scotland would be accepted into the EU. It would have to apply as any other ‘new’ country and that could take a while. All in all, I think the sensible position in Scotland would be to wait and see what happens over the next couple of years. I appreciate the anger, but then where I live – the old industrial north of England – would have been equally angry with a Remain vote. The blame for all this farce is the lack of the governments – UK and across the EU – to take seriously the complaints of voters. Discussing immigration concerns, or job fears, or welfare / health / education pressures due to population shifts, is not racist in of itself. A lot of my neighbours feel abandoned and insulted by their representatives and this is the result of 20+ years of being told “you’re wrong, and stupid, and racist”. Blame Brown, Blair, Corbyn, Cameron and the rest. Let’s take a big deep breath, be respectful and reasonable to reach other, and not rush anything in the next few weeks.
APATS, far from being arrogant and ill informed, I think I’ve set out an impartial and accurate assessment of the facts. Preferring or wishing that the situation was different does not change the facts of the matter.
Looking at what the SNP are doing, they seem to have a well rehearsed plan for this contingency, and the key theme of their plan appears to be immediacy.
The SNP don’t really have the authority to deal with any of the things currently being urgently expressed – whether it’s calling a referendum or negotiating with the EU.
The urgency being applied seems intended to bounce the UK government into allowing a new Scottish referendum. The SNP might as well be shouting in an empty room though. Cameron’s immediate resignation has inadvertently sidestepped this issue. He’s still PM until a leadership contest has taken place; but he’s a zombie PM who has no authority and who can make no such major constitutional pledges. The UK government is now incapable of being rushed on this matter.
It is also not a case of Cameron being a good egg and pushing through the paperwork for a new Scottish referendum before his time is up. A legislative referendum requires legislation. An Act of Parliament has to be passed which allows Scottish independence to take place, and which sets out the means by which that legislation is enacted, ie, the terms of the referendum. Resignation or not, it is not in the power of the Prime Minister to pass that legislation independently of both houses of Parliament.
Another reason for the SNP’s urgency regarding independence is that UK exit from the EU could take years to actually happen. If the nationalists cannot create a rapid momentum towards a new referendum, the danger for them is that many Scottish voters who wanted to remain in the EU will look around and see that nothing particularly bad has happened.
If this time next year a new Scottish referendum is no closer, and nothing much has changed for the average Scotsman in the street, there will be a growing indifference to the result of the increasingly distant EU referendum. The EU factor in the result of any new Scottish independence referendum will be increasingly diminished, yet the nationalists need that EU factor to have any hope of tipping the balance towards independence.
Observer, I voted to remain in the EU, but I won’t be sorry to see those that ran such a poor remain campaign step aside.
As well as running a poor campaign, Cameron has been happy to bash the EU and its institutions over the years when it has suited his agenda. He has himself helped to build the negative attitudes towards the EU that have taken us out. Don’t shed too many tears for the guy.
@BB
In one post you sum up exactly why Scotland will be leaving the UK. Arrogant and ill informed. You have no idea of the mood up here and it is not good.
Are Westminster really going to deny us our Democratic right to choose.
No chance, we will have the paperwork through before Cameron levels because he at least is an honourable man.
This is the last election where the compassionate liberal Democracy of Scotland is out voted by people like those that trashed Marseille.
There’s a lot of huffing from the European establishment over this result. They’ve made a very gd living out of Brussels but there is growing dissatisfaction across the people of Europe that to much political and legal dictate is coming from a European system nobody really wanted or voted for. A common market not a United States of Europe. One less level of beuracracy and politicians is no bad thing.
The SNP are much like there Europe counterparts they want to keep re running once in a lifetime votes until they get the right answer the SNP were at it as soon as the lost last years vote perhaps we should have best out of 3!
30m plus people went and freely exercised there democratic right which many on here have fought to defend. For a country that has over the last number of years suffered very low turnouts at general elections we should take some pride in that and use it as an example to the world.
Teddy Roosevelt said “speak softly, but carry a big stick”. I think that applies to diplomacy as well as the military. Yes, the “Leave” leaders need to heal wounds & speak nicely, but they also need to hint at the retaliation if others choose to pick on Britain.
Why rush to buy P-8s or any other American equipment while Obama says Britain is at the back of the Q for a trade deal?
Juncker has got the mood wrong. Ruling out any new deal & promising revenge on Britain is the recipe for a trade war with high tariffs. Merkel should override him. The vote was 52-48. A semi detached membership of the EU for Britain would be near guaranteed to pass in a second referendum. Also handy for other EU nations threatening to leave.
“The EU referendum was not sneakily introduced after the Scottish vote. At the time of the Scottish referendum, and decision to remain part of the UK, any reasonable person would have known that a subsequent EU referendum was a realistic prospect.”
Agreed, BrianB
There is no justification to hold another Scottish independence referendum.
Part and parcel with Scotland’s decision to stay in the UK is the acceptance that the majority public opinion in Scotland may differ from the majority public opinion in the UK as a whole – on this or any other issue.
The EU referendum has been a nationwide UK vote. At the time of the Scottish independence referendum, the population of Scotland were a minority part of the UK population – this is not a condition that has only arisen after the Scottish referendum. When Scotland’s residents voted to remain part of the UK, any reasonable person would have realised that folks north of the border could be outnumbered on nationwide UK decisions if they chose to remain.
Both the Scottish independence and EU membership referendums were promised by David Cameron and the Conservative party. Cameron first made the pledge to hold an in-out EU referendum twenty months before the Scottish independence referendum was held. The EU referendum was not sneakily introduced after the Scottish vote. At the time of the Scottish referendum, and decision to remain part of the UK, any reasonable person would have known that a subsequent EU referendum was a realistic prospect.
There were no conditions or qualifications on the Scottish independence ballot paper. No Scottish vetoes were offered. No promises were made to return to the question of independence under any circumstances. A single, unqualified decision was offered to the people of Scotland – wholly approved by the largest nationalist party in Scotland.
The people of Scotland got what they voted for. There will always be winners and losers – that’s democracy in action. Some losers need to learn to deal with that fact; not everyone can have everything their way all of the time.
BB, I get what you mean but I still find it a pity. Not because he did something wrong but simply because he supported a position that the majority disagreed with. If people were to be penalized for that, then 48% of the UK’s population would have to be punished.
Can’t stop him if he wants to resign, but it’s a pity.
APATS, a Scottish independence referendum that has not originated in Westminster, and is not a legislative referendum, is at best a petition. As a consequence, one might expect the outcome to be in favour of independence, as Scottish nationalists would be much more inclined to bother voting than unionists.
While you insist that Scotland can and will hold this non-binding referendum (petition/opinion poll), not even the SNP support you on that. The SNP has only announced that they will prepare Scottish legislation to facilitate a possible referendum in the event of primary legislation from Westminster.
A referendum without Westminster legislation would risk the credibility of the nationalist cause (if there was any outcome other than a landslide for independence) and risk increasing voter apathy through electoral fatigue – with unpredictable outcomes and diminished mandate with a small turnout.
Observer, you can’t really expect a political leader to not express an opinion in a referendum campaign like this; particularly as when Cameron first made the pledge to hold an EU referendum, nearly three and a half years ago, he also pledged to put his “heart and soul” into the remain campaign.
We see what wishy-washy political leadership gets you with Labour MPs now calling for a vote of no confidence against their guy.
Cameron could probably continue. Leading Tory Brexiteers pledged their support for Cameron shortly before the referendum, regardless of outcome.
I think the main reason that Cameron resigned is that, having supported EU membership, he does not want to be the one to enact the treaty clause to leave the EU. Remember also that this is a PM who has already stated he would be stepping down before the next election; the timing now allows for the cleanest exit, with a new leader in place before the next party conference, and plenty of time to establish themselves before the next general election.
I think Cameron has at least ensured that the Conservative leadership handover will be smoother than the potentially messy assassination set in motion by Labour MPs.
apats tearing england and scotland apart will be far more damaging to both countries than leaving the EU ever would be,and you think your voice will be heard more loudly in brussels than london?
makes me laugh cant be in our union but an even bigger one where you have less say is ok?
makes sense.
TON, I wasn’t aware that there was a “trade queue”. So where is this list that is mentioned? :)
This seriously illustrates the flaw that politicians know nuts about business.
It’s even bad enough that I’m starting to think Trump for president isn’t that bad an idea. And I think he’s a lunatic! But at least they get a president that actually does business, so at least knows what’s going on.
“Britain will ‘go to back of trade queue’, White House says” – Reuters
The morning after the night before .
Definitely remember going to bed in the EU, but don’t know where I woke up this morning !
@Wf
Not true Westminster can make a referendum binding but we can have one any time and we will.
Scotland has had enough of being ignored by Marseille rioting, union short wearing Essex wide boys.
We have grown apart and last night was the final straw.
Scotland is ready to take its place among the small successful nations of Europe.
It is EU institutions overruling UK ones that has been a common theme as well. If the Supreme Court makes a ruling, a European Court overriding that decision was a step too far for many.
The next stage of this process , exiting EU control , will be most interesting .Calm ,clear heads are needed to examine why the iUK voted the way it did and what the public want from it. Many EU imposed laws and declarations are perfectly sensible and fit with a progressive ,inclusive society but others impinge on our national sensibilities and concepts of “fairness” about what we should support and what is a step to far. We as a Nation are the ONLY ones in the World that meet the 0.7% GDP overseas aid target and one of only three NATO countries that meet the spending goal of 2% GDP.
We also heavily support the Commonwealth ( obviously some crossover of spending here ) and are key player in global politics and commerce ,sometimes being the only sane voice in the room.
We must strive to maintain our present position in the rest of the world and ensure that there is minimal repercussions in terms of trade and support of our beneficent aspirations across the globe in maintaining peace and prosperity.
Basically , situation normal as far as the rest of the world is concerned but we will deal with our own internal politics on our own.
@C…: I’m at a loss as to how a decision that will involve us interacting directly with the world rather than via a large supranational bureaucracy is supposed to make us more insular. We will also have a full vote in various international bodies, rather than the current 1/28th.
On the subject of nationalism, what did you think “ever closer union” was, exactly?
@Donald_of_Tokyo: Scotland cannot call another independence referendum. Only the UK government can do that, and since it’s less than two years since the last one, that’s unlikely. As well as being a bit “EU”, where unwanted voters are told to bloody well think again and vote the right way, this time :-(
On a practical basis, the SNP doesn’t want one. It knows perfectly well it would lose, not least because there is no oil money at the moment. This is just Nicola salving the cybernats :-)
Well the UK agreed on co-development of Concorde & Jaguar with France before the UK joined the EEC. Yes, the UK has voted to leave the EU, but that is no reason to stop joint development projects. In fact they might be just the thing to settle nerves. So if the Germans want a stealthy Tornado replacement using bits from the Typhoon, I see no reason why Britain should not be a partner in that.
C, forging your own path does not mean becoming insular. In fact, it might just be the opposite! Federations by their own nature tend to be inward looking, most of the federations I know of usually put such a high focus on internal politics that they actually neglect external affairs, so if you want to be an internationally focused country, the EU is surprisingly *not* the way to go.
After all, you don’t hear much these days internationally about the African Union or the Federation of Malaya or the Federal Union of India. And even less so about their individual member states. Check how much the EU spends per year on “integration”.
No, you’re not smaller. You just stopped focusing purely on Europe.
Donald, I doubt the SNP’s going to get a second vote, or at least if they are smart, they won’t try for one, the previous vote is still fresh in people’s minds and trying again would make them seem like sore losers and annoy people for even worse results. All their current publicity stunts are just trying to make headlines to make them seem like they are “doing something”. As for Sinn Fein, they’re the “opposition party” in Ireland and you know opposition parties, lots of “opposition” not much action. The one to watch out for is the DUP (Democratic Unionist Party) and they haven’t said anything yet.