From the MoD this morning, news about Paveway IV and Typhoon
A Typhoon of 1 (Fighter) Squadron prepares to drop a Paveway IV precision guided bomb at the Cape Wrath training area.A Typhoon of 1 (Fighter) Squadron prepares to drop a Paveway IV precision guided bomb at the Cape Wrath training area.UK Royal Air Force Typhoon capability has taken another step forward with a live weapon testing sortie carried out by Britain’s oldest frontline squadron. Two Paveway IV precision guided bombs were dropped sucessfully, with two direct hits.
Which would be fair except that Paveway IV has only been in service for 6 years
The wider point is fair enough though
Hohum
November 28, 2014 3:34 pm
And Typhoon has been in service throughout that period. Paveway IV one would presume being a relatively key capability for a multi-role platform.
Challenger
November 28, 2014 3:59 pm
We all know that integrating anything with Typhoon takes forever, Brimstone and Storm-Shadow have also been around for years and aren’t even close to arriving on a multi-role platform that is going to have to fulfill the Tornado’s long-range strike ‘bomber’ role by 2019 as well as do a hell of a lot of other stuff at the same time.
I guess at the very least earlier types of Paveway have been used on Typhoon for a while now (didn’t they drop some in Libya?) so it hasn’t been quite as pressing a requirement as other things may have been.
“@All – Typhoon would have had all its toys if only it weren’t for those pesky European Partners. Do try to keep up.”
My work here is done.
ArmChairCivvy
November 28, 2014 9:31 pm
Maybe they just want what they first ordered, admittedly in lower numbers. Why are the Germans keeping Tornados (and before that Phantoms)?
Why are the Italians buying F35s when they are practically bankrupt?
The part of the consortium management that has been really twisted is the export strategy. The Saudi deal was delivered to a requirement that first of all got the RAF out of a financial pickle, and as a bonus, has turned out more useful than the originally specced dvlpmnt path. But since then it has been all about ” me too” turning up in the bigger fighter competitions, rather than having hard dates for the missing capabilities, when will they be delivered not just as promises to the prospect but at least to one of the original partners, to give those promises credibility.
‘Maybe they just want what they first ordered, admittedly in lower numbers. Why are the Germans keeping Tornados (and before that Phantoms)?’
Yes they are, the RAF’s idea of what we wanted and the other countries are somewhat different.
They have very low FH in comparison to say the RAF, they can keep airframes going for years longer. I’ve little doubt they will have Gr4s flying in 20 years.
ArmChairCivvy
November 28, 2014 9:52 pm
As that is a fact, isn’t it showing lack of initiative that the UK has not wrestled to itself a lead role within the consortium for export sales, with kick-backs from the proceeds to speed up the dvlpmnt of what we and most of the prospects want.
A bit like the the rescue deal for the Grizzly: a couple of bn extended as a loan, but only repayable from export proceeds (that are not reallocations of initially taken up production slots).
Just asking…
topman
November 28, 2014 10:08 pm
We have most of the time, not always worked out. That’s the way it goes in partnerships.
Challenger
November 28, 2014 10:46 pm
Interesting points being made about Typhoon. As frustrating as it is to see weapons/sensor integration going at a snails pace because of an unwillingness by the other primary partners to commit more funds it is useful to keep in mind that the RAF wants far more out of Typhoon than the others do.
I know it was always designed to be multi-role and not just an air superiority fighter but how recent is the desire to integrate stuff like Brimstone and Storm-Shadow? Was Typhoon planned in earlier guises to be a premier interceptor and only provide simpler bomb-truck capabilities before the penny dropped with the RAF and they realised a like for like Tornado replacement in the shape of FOAS wasn’t going to happen?
Chris Werb
November 29, 2014 11:48 am
Is it known whether GPS/INS mode was used or were the bombs simply guided sing SALH? In SALH mode the PIV appears to have little to offer over the baseline GBU-12 except the airburst options and divert/dud if laser lock is broken.
Hohum
November 29, 2014 9:23 pm
Challenger,
Typhoon was always meant to be a multirole platform. From its conception in the late 80s it was intended to replace the remaining Jaguar and Phantom squadrons and two Squadrons of Tornado GR (that were in turn to replace the remaining Buccaneer’s in the anti-ship role).
Jim30
November 30, 2014 5:38 pm
“that is a fact, isn’t it showing lack of initiative that the UK has not wrestled to itself a lead role within the consortium for export sales, with kick-backs from the proceeds to speed up the dvlpmnt of what we and most of the prospects want.”
The EF consortium handles exports on a campaign basis, with different nations taking the lead in different areas. The UK has led on a great many campaigns, but not unreasonably the other partner nations also seek this cachet too. Roughly speaking export leads are based on both nation best placed to suceed and also percentage of workshare too.
ArmChairCivvy
November 30, 2014 5:45 pm
India?
(The fighter deal of the century; although, in true India fashion it might turn out to be a no deal)
Jim30
November 30, 2014 6:19 pm
India – see my point about workshare leads. It came about at a time when the UK was leading on a lot of other campaigns.
Challenger
November 30, 2014 7:01 pm
What are the odds on India pulling out of it’s Rafale deal and choosing Typhoon instead?
Everything i hear on the subject paints a picture of spiraling costs and major delays. Plus although Typhoon has been stricken by some big delays itself we are finally starting to see some real movement on AESA, Brimstone and Storm-Shadow.
It would be a major coup for Eurofighter and possibly convince other customers to follow in India’s wake.
Topman
November 30, 2014 7:06 pm
I think it’s just the way the Indian MoD deal with things, very slow and complex with plenty of politics, all lasting many years.
Topman is probably right, but I do just wonder – might there be a bit of sharp practice at play by the Indians? IIRC the first 18-24 or so of the 126 order were supposed to be built in France and the French are trying to eke out their own production – down to around 11 a year now. Perhaps India is hoping the line closes and it is transported to India which then builds the whole lot? Along with any future export orders.
Probably complete tosh but fun for conspiracy theorists :-)
ArmChairCivvy
November 30, 2014 8:59 pm
Haven’t followed up with the latest but seem to remember the deal was done on price. Now, adding back all the pieces, having to refurb their top end of the fighter fleet because of the delay and the front line strength dropping like a stone when the domestic prgrm went into a further iteration… It is all too much for their budget. So the newest baby will (?) go out with the bath water (the PAK-FA Indian version that was meant to catapult them into the fore of fighter development).
Hohum
December 1, 2014 11:52 am
According to Indian blog and press reports the main issue holding up the Indian MMRCA programme is liability. In short, HAL (who will be doing the license manufacturing) want Dassault to take on a level of risk for those aircraft that Dassault is unwilling to accept given the current state of HAL’s facilities. I believe there are budget problems, Rafale (just like Typhoon) is not cheap and 126 aircraft (combined with the cost of doing business in India) is a huge order but the Indians are apparently emphatic that the money can be found. I really don’t see a Typhoon opportunity here.
There are no Indian aircraft undergoing major upgrades because of the MMRCA delay that were not meant to receive upgrades anyway.
IMO, BAE should have lead the Indian campaign, I doubt the outcome would have been any different though.
Do we know what tranche this Typhoon is?
WiseApe
Tranche 2 a/c more details here http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/first-paveway-iv-release-for-raf-typhoons-at-raf-lossiemouth-27112014
Only 20 years after the first prototype flight, and people here have problems with the F-35…..
Which would be fair except that Paveway IV has only been in service for 6 years
The wider point is fair enough though
And Typhoon has been in service throughout that period. Paveway IV one would presume being a relatively key capability for a multi-role platform.
We all know that integrating anything with Typhoon takes forever, Brimstone and Storm-Shadow have also been around for years and aren’t even close to arriving on a multi-role platform that is going to have to fulfill the Tornado’s long-range strike ‘bomber’ role by 2019 as well as do a hell of a lot of other stuff at the same time.
I guess at the very least earlier types of Paveway have been used on Typhoon for a while now (didn’t they drop some in Libya?) so it hasn’t been quite as pressing a requirement as other things may have been.
All comes down to money though, or lack of it!
Yes, Typhoon had been integrated with Paveway II prior to IV.
Thanks for that Mark
@All – Typhoon would have had all its toys if only it weren’t for those pesky carriers. Do try to keep up.
I think the first PW drop was reasonably quickly, in 2007. The process doesn’t take that long, it’s starting the process that takes so long.
Let me fix this sentence for you:
My work here is done.
Maybe they just want what they first ordered, admittedly in lower numbers. Why are the Germans keeping Tornados (and before that Phantoms)?
Why are the Italians buying F35s when they are practically bankrupt?
The part of the consortium management that has been really twisted is the export strategy. The Saudi deal was delivered to a requirement that first of all got the RAF out of a financial pickle, and as a bonus, has turned out more useful than the originally specced dvlpmnt path. But since then it has been all about ” me too” turning up in the bigger fighter competitions, rather than having hard dates for the missing capabilities, when will they be delivered not just as promises to the prospect but at least to one of the original partners, to give those promises credibility.
@ACC
‘Maybe they just want what they first ordered, admittedly in lower numbers. Why are the Germans keeping Tornados (and before that Phantoms)?’
Yes they are, the RAF’s idea of what we wanted and the other countries are somewhat different.
They have very low FH in comparison to say the RAF, they can keep airframes going for years longer. I’ve little doubt they will have Gr4s flying in 20 years.
As that is a fact, isn’t it showing lack of initiative that the UK has not wrestled to itself a lead role within the consortium for export sales, with kick-backs from the proceeds to speed up the dvlpmnt of what we and most of the prospects want.
A bit like the the rescue deal for the Grizzly: a couple of bn extended as a loan, but only repayable from export proceeds (that are not reallocations of initially taken up production slots).
Just asking…
We have most of the time, not always worked out. That’s the way it goes in partnerships.
Interesting points being made about Typhoon. As frustrating as it is to see weapons/sensor integration going at a snails pace because of an unwillingness by the other primary partners to commit more funds it is useful to keep in mind that the RAF wants far more out of Typhoon than the others do.
I know it was always designed to be multi-role and not just an air superiority fighter but how recent is the desire to integrate stuff like Brimstone and Storm-Shadow? Was Typhoon planned in earlier guises to be a premier interceptor and only provide simpler bomb-truck capabilities before the penny dropped with the RAF and they realised a like for like Tornado replacement in the shape of FOAS wasn’t going to happen?
Is it known whether GPS/INS mode was used or were the bombs simply guided sing SALH? In SALH mode the PIV appears to have little to offer over the baseline GBU-12 except the airburst options and divert/dud if laser lock is broken.
Challenger,
Typhoon was always meant to be a multirole platform. From its conception in the late 80s it was intended to replace the remaining Jaguar and Phantom squadrons and two Squadrons of Tornado GR (that were in turn to replace the remaining Buccaneer’s in the anti-ship role).
“that is a fact, isn’t it showing lack of initiative that the UK has not wrestled to itself a lead role within the consortium for export sales, with kick-backs from the proceeds to speed up the dvlpmnt of what we and most of the prospects want.”
The EF consortium handles exports on a campaign basis, with different nations taking the lead in different areas. The UK has led on a great many campaigns, but not unreasonably the other partner nations also seek this cachet too. Roughly speaking export leads are based on both nation best placed to suceed and also percentage of workshare too.
India?
(The fighter deal of the century; although, in true India fashion it might turn out to be a no deal)
India – see my point about workshare leads. It came about at a time when the UK was leading on a lot of other campaigns.
What are the odds on India pulling out of it’s Rafale deal and choosing Typhoon instead?
Everything i hear on the subject paints a picture of spiraling costs and major delays. Plus although Typhoon has been stricken by some big delays itself we are finally starting to see some real movement on AESA, Brimstone and Storm-Shadow.
It would be a major coup for Eurofighter and possibly convince other customers to follow in India’s wake.
I think it’s just the way the Indian MoD deal with things, very slow and complex with plenty of politics, all lasting many years.
Topman is probably right, but I do just wonder – might there be a bit of sharp practice at play by the Indians? IIRC the first 18-24 or so of the 126 order were supposed to be built in France and the French are trying to eke out their own production – down to around 11 a year now. Perhaps India is hoping the line closes and it is transported to India which then builds the whole lot? Along with any future export orders.
Probably complete tosh but fun for conspiracy theorists :-)
Haven’t followed up with the latest but seem to remember the deal was done on price. Now, adding back all the pieces, having to refurb their top end of the fighter fleet because of the delay and the front line strength dropping like a stone when the domestic prgrm went into a further iteration… It is all too much for their budget. So the newest baby will (?) go out with the bath water (the PAK-FA Indian version that was meant to catapult them into the fore of fighter development).
According to Indian blog and press reports the main issue holding up the Indian MMRCA programme is liability. In short, HAL (who will be doing the license manufacturing) want Dassault to take on a level of risk for those aircraft that Dassault is unwilling to accept given the current state of HAL’s facilities. I believe there are budget problems, Rafale (just like Typhoon) is not cheap and 126 aircraft (combined with the cost of doing business in India) is a huge order but the Indians are apparently emphatic that the money can be found. I really don’t see a Typhoon opportunity here.
There are no Indian aircraft undergoing major upgrades because of the MMRCA delay that were not meant to receive upgrades anyway.
IMO, BAE should have lead the Indian campaign, I doubt the outcome would have been any different though.
Really?
I am sure the tone of the article will irritate you @hohum as much as me, but it is good to have these types making themselves important by spilling the beans
… Lots of specifics, which are either non-facts – or not!
http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/01/05/how_the_su-30_mki_is_changing_the_iafs_combat_strategy_32099.html
ACC,
I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say with that post.