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wf
wf
December 1, 2013 12:26 pm

Ran aground when going to the breakers yard, doubtless hoping someone would change their mind! Surprising how often you seem to see this behaviour: a router from one of my oldest sites let me log into console then refused to “request system zeroise” three times when I shut it down for the last time :-(

Or maybe I’m just overly sentimental!

Colonial
Colonial
December 1, 2013 12:27 pm

The unanswered question is how second rate dreadnoughts from around the world got to be kept on as museum pieces while the RN’s greatest fighting ship was sent to the wreckers.

Rocket Banana
December 1, 2013 1:35 pm

Slightly silly question…

How would the armour on these things match up against modern day torpedos and anti-ship missiles?

I mean 14 inch belt armour vs a torpedo?

Bob
Bob
December 1, 2013 2:01 pm

Simon,

Very silly question. Warspite was a member of the QE class, as the sinking of Barham demonstrated they were not even a match for WW2 torpedoes. This question comes up frequently and the answer is emphatically no.

Colonel,

It is not an unanswered questioned, the reason is simple. The MoD, ever since Fisher sold off a large part of the reserve fleet in 1904-10, has used its assets very efficiently- meaning they tend to keep obsolete and unused assets in reserve. Thus they get scrapped before anyone gets nostalgic about their historic significance.

M&S
M&S
December 1, 2013 2:20 pm

Chief stoker on a submarine… Hmmmm.

Tell me, are there screen doors too?

It was a good ship. With a great history.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 1, 2013 2:42 pm

It was a cracker of a name, TD.

It is probably only me, but HMS Duncan (one of the new T45s) strikes me as a name that in the modern context is not macho enough. I have read of the Battle of Camperdown, and Admiral Duncan, and I do see a need to celebrate history. But Duncan is not a very exciting name.

Wouldn’t it be nice to see warships called things like Vicious, Merciless, Relentless, or Pitiless? I know we’ve used somethings similar in the past. Anything that implies the Andrew is a proper fighting force and not some outreach branch of DFID.

Phil
December 1, 2013 2:44 pm

How about HMS iPod?

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 1, 2013 2:49 pm

Phil,

there is no truth at all in the suggestion that HMS Cornwall should have been re-named HMS Pansy after ipodgate. It was greatly embarrassing, but not to my view the sailor’s flat. The establishment that put them in that position without adequate intelligence or robust ROE is greatly to blame.

My grandfather commanded Daffodil (an MTB) in the Channel in 1940-42. I’m not sure if MTBs were proper HMS’s or merely numbered and were given pet names. But Daffodil?

WiseApe
December 1, 2013 2:59 pm

I suggested, somewhat tongue in cheek, HMS Dowding, given that T45 are air warfare destroyers.

x
x
December 1, 2013 3:12 pm
Waylander
Waylander
December 1, 2013 3:13 pm

There are lots of old RN ship names starting with D that sound a damn sight fiercer than Duncan eg

HMS Dagger
HMS Demon
HMS Dervish
HMS Destroyer
HMS Devastation
HMS Drake
HMS Dreadful
HMS Duke of Wellington (Would not be used because of Iron Duke)

or even HMS Disdain

but perhaps not HMS Dego or HMS Dwarf!

Topman
Topman
December 1, 2013 3:15 pm

‘HMS Dreadful’

Not sure about that one!

Waylander
Waylander
December 1, 2013 3:25 pm

@Topman

Yeah I copied & pasted the names, should have deleted that one, but I assume they meant she was Dreadful to the enemy!

x
x
December 1, 2013 3:29 pm

HMS Dec and HMS Ant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ant

@ Waylander

Dreadful would have been a good name for a B1 T42……..

Waylander
Waylander
December 1, 2013 3:32 pm

HMS Dreadnought is obviously the best D name, but would not be used because of S101.

Observer
Observer
December 1, 2013 3:47 pm

Shorten it? HMS Dread.

If you wanted a name for an air defence ship, why not HMS Deliverance? Defiance being an nice oldie too. Someone once commented to me that ship names tend to be verbs. This at least harkens back to the old practice.

HMS Dyspeptic? :P

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 1, 2013 3:47 pm

HMS Devastation has a ring to it.

I expect there’s too much political correctness and not nearly enough balls in Whitehall to go for that though, nor likely a crew to live up to it.

Mark
Mark
December 1, 2013 4:37 pm

How about HMS Denial

Opinion3
Opinion3
December 1, 2013 4:39 pm

Can’t we keep it simple

HMS Destroyer

dave haine
dave haine
December 1, 2013 4:48 pm

HMS Disturbance?

@ M&S

Trust me…don’t go there, the andrew still have ‘Writers’ tapping away at PC’s

Waylander
Waylander
December 1, 2013 4:52 pm

@Mark

“HMS Denial”

Should be ok, unless the ship took a wrong turn at Suez, then she would be in…..

Chris Werb
Chris Werb
December 1, 2013 4:58 pm

I also smirked at the “Chief Stoker” rank, but, to be fair, we have had steam (not nuclear) powered subs in the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_K-class_submarine

dgos
dgos
December 1, 2013 5:04 pm

How about HMS Daisy ( scullery maid from Downton Abbey who thought she was ‘equipped for but not fitted’ for better things )

or even HMS Downton – now having to make do with what can be afforded not what was expected!

WiseApe
December 1, 2013 5:20 pm

HMS Diego. Motto: “The Hand of God.”

SR
SR
December 1, 2013 5:20 pm

Wow, the anti-RN crowd are out in force today. How sad.

Duncan was chosen not just for the Admiral but also to provide a Scottish link in the small pool of 6 D-class warships. Hence also Dragon as a Welsh link. Tha Navy has maintained a tradition of names chosen from across the United Kingdom to maintain links with local affiliations and keep the Navy in the public image.

John Hartley
John Hartley
December 1, 2013 5:28 pm

As W follows V, will the follow on Trident boats be Ws? If so, then Warspite , Warrior, could make a comeback. Does the RN have four famous W? No rude answers please.

Commodore
Commodore
December 1, 2013 6:06 pm

@SR

Easy now, they are only having a bit on fun mate.

@dgos

Hah, but what about HMS Destitute? Wouldn’t that fit the bill better? I think it has a nice ring to it.

TED
TED
December 1, 2013 6:07 pm

What about the T26s what are there names going to begin with?

Commodore
Commodore
December 1, 2013 6:13 pm

@dgos

Apologies, I’ve seem to have given you a downvote instead of an upvote.

@TED

HMS Austerity?

x
x
December 1, 2013 6:19 pm

@ John Hartley

There was a W-class on the drawing board. It was to follow on from the S-boats, but the project was cancelled and we got the T-boats which are an improved S.

El Sid
El Sid
December 1, 2013 7:35 pm

People might get some inspiration from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ship_names_of_the_Royal_Navy_%28D%E2%80%93F%29#D

and related pages.

Personally, given that the T45 are effectively light cruisers, I would have liked to see them given proper cruiser names. With only six to name, you could do it with D’s alone, whilst sticking to shire counties spread across the four nations – HM Ships Derbyshire, Devonshire, Dorsetshire, Denbighshire, Downshire and Dumbartonshire. Two very famous names in that lot. If you don’t mind counties that aren’t shires, you could add in Durham and Dyfed – and they might be preferred just to reduce confusion between D-shires.

We’re now past the E’s, I guess the next to be named will be the new OPVs – Fearless/Fury/Firedrake? I’d like Successor to be H’s as you could also stick with the admiral theme for capital ships using names that have all been HMS in the past – Hawke, Hood, Howe and Horatio (or Hardy). It’d be nice to have a Hermes again, although that would be even better as a mythical Ocean replacement to stick with the aviation history. HMS Hotspur almost counts as well.

There are some good “frigatey” (ie mostly adjective) G and I names for the T26 – Garland (oldest recorded name in the RN going back nearly 800 years and overdue for reuse), Glorious, Gadfly, Inflexible, Indomitable, Indefatigable, Intrepid, Invicta and so on. You could have the GP ones as G’s and the ASW ones as I’s. I suspect they’ll probably get city names under some guise though.

Mark
Mark
December 1, 2013 7:45 pm

If they want to “connect” with the people then perhaps bring back London, Cardiff,Edinburgh and Belfast would be the easiest.

as
as
December 1, 2013 7:55 pm

Has any one hard weather Prince of wales is gong to be named ark royal?

x
x
December 1, 2013 8:22 pm

No. Why is everybody obsessed with that ruddy ship’s name?

mr.fred
mr.fred
December 1, 2013 8:33 pm

The Carriers are the Queen Elizabeth class, the other ships of the previous class were Barham, Valiant, Malaya and Warspite. Barham went down with significant loss of life, so might be considered unlucky, Malaya would be impolitic, so Valiant or Warspite would seem apt for the second ship, if you felt like changing the name of a carrier from one shared by a capital ship rather famously sunk by underestimating changing technology.

Then again, it may serve to focus the mind.

George
George
December 1, 2013 8:33 pm

@x I’d prefer Eagle or Victorious! :-)

We could look to Sci Fi and the late Iain M Banks Culture Ship names:

e.g.Don’t Try This At Home, Now We Try It My Way, Eight Rounds Rapid? :-)

Sorry been on the Sherry early!

El Sid
El Sid
December 1, 2013 8:50 pm

Personally I think Ark Royal can wait its turn when there are so many good “heavy” names that aren’t being used – Royal Oak/Sovereign being examples. But I always like simplicity, and always find the Queen Elizabeth class a bit of a mouthful. It’s the ultimate mothership, so let’s call the second one Queen Victoria after the ultimate mother of the nation and then it becomes simply the Queen class. Other than the unfortunate Eastenders reference, it just makes life simpler.

As an aside, there’s one name I think the RN is lacking. Given some of the admirals that have been given ship names and a future emphasising naval aviation, it’s just an embarrassment that there’s never been an HMS Cunningham, and it’s also a bit awkward that there’s a USS Churchill but no HMS Churchill.

In fact C is another rich area for a Successor class combining a letter and admirals – Cochrane, Cockburn and Codrington, plus I suppose Collingwood could be reassigned if you needed it. If you wanted new names then just among Admirals of the Fleet you could have Clinton, Commerell, Clanwilliam, Callaghan, Calthorpe, Chatfield and Creasy although some of those don’t really deserve the honour. Commerell must be a rarity as an admiral with a VC.

x
x
December 1, 2013 9:17 pm

@ George

Yes. I prefer Eagle because it is nice and short and dynamic, but no Victorious is good too.

Stay off the sherry, there’s a good boy. ;)

Simon257
Simon257
December 1, 2013 11:10 pm

This short video was recently posted on YouTube, showing the last moments of HMS Barham.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YdrISbwy_zI

dave haine
dave haine
December 1, 2013 11:25 pm

@ george

Always liked ‘Ultimate plan 2’ from Iain M Banks

@ El Sid

Why are we past the ‘E’s?

Overseas
Overseas
December 2, 2013 1:07 am

@ George

Great idea. ‘Falling Outside the Normal Moral Constraints’, ‘Anticipation of a New Lover’s Arrival, The’, or ‘What is the Answer and Why?’

Chuck Hill
Chuck Hill
December 2, 2013 6:40 am

@ Simon, “How would the armour on these things match up against modern day torpedos and anti-ship missiles? I mean 14 inch belt armour vs a torpedo?”

It is a common misconception that the entire hull or ship, was armored. In fact only very specific areas were armored. The most extensive armor was a box with one or more armored decks on top and side armor in the form of a belt near the waterline. The box extended only between the most forward and the most aft turrets. There might be light armor to the bow and stern, but it was not the full thickness. Usually the thickness of the armor belt tapered below and above the waterline. But there was no bottom on the armored box. Torpedoes were set to run at a depth below the armor belt. Anti-torpedo protection consisted of several longitudinal bulkheads that would theoretically limit flooding.

Big difference is modern torpedoes explode under the ships bottom, rather than on the side of the ship.

They tried to do this in WWII using magnetic influence fuses, but it never worked very well. Warsprite was saved major damage at the Second Battle of Narvik, because German torpedoes with magnetic influence fuses failed to work properly.

Observer
Observer
December 2, 2013 9:13 am

Chuck, wasn’t there something about the change in buoyancy under a specific part of a ship when the medium is changed from water to air in an explosion causing a loss of upthrust support on the ship and causing it to sag and snap at that location? Not sure how it works, only the general impression of it.

Chris
Chris
December 2, 2013 9:27 am

Obs – I believe the effect is mostly due to the intense pressure front that radiates through the water from the explosion – same effect as depth charges wreak on submerged boats. There is I am told a photograph within MOD somewhere of a stretched T42 in very heavy seas with bow and stern low in the water and clear air visible under the hull amidships – the Naval Architects upon seeing this declared such beam loading was within design parameters for a limited envelope of speeds; when they were informed the ship was making 18-20kt they went very pale. Not sure if this was before or after the elegant ships got their somewhat obvious strengthening beams welded to the hull sides: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/HMS_Edinburgh_Falklands.jpg

Observer
Observer
December 2, 2013 9:43 am

Don’t think that is a reinforcement beam, it’s an extended walkway. Maybe. Not my forte, but if it was a beam, it’s sure in a strange place.

Dunservin
Dunservin
December 2, 2013 9:55 am

@Observer

The same principle applies to the underwater explosion caused by an influence sea mine or depth charge. The explosion not only produces a shock wave but also creates an energy-filled pulsating bubble of gas which expands and collapses at incredible speed as it rises to the surface. If great enough, this bubble of pulsating but gradually reducing energy can break a ship’s back owing to a combination of hogging (bowing) and sagging. The effect on a surface target is reduced in shallow water because the gases vent to atmosphere too quickly. In deeper water, too much energy may dissipate into the sea and the bubble’s oscillation reduce too much before it reaches the surface to achieve the desired effect (still useful against a submarine though).

Approximately 53% of the total energy released from a 1,500 lb TNT underwater explosion goes into the shock wave and 47% goes into the pulsation of the bubble. If great enough, the initial shock wave will cause mission abort damage or sinking anyway and may be a greater factor if the explosion doesn’t occur immediately below the target.

El Sid
El Sid
December 2, 2013 10:10 am

@Mark
Although the one on the Thames is not in commission, I can’t see there being another HMS Belfast whilst she’s still afloat. City names are awkward if you want to satisfy the four nations – noone will agree on (London)Derry, I’m not sure we’ll ever see HMS Newry or HMS Lisburn. County names are easier, Antrim has history.

@dave haine
Echo-class survey ships. They also throw up the reverse of the Churchill thing, there’s no USS Enterprise at the moment but there is an HMS Enterprise. To be honest the E names are better suited to support ships, other than Eagle and Excalibur they’re not particularly warlike compared to some of the letters coming after them.

Challenger
Challenger
December 2, 2013 10:31 am

I can see how using the traditional Town names for the T26 would inevitably cause wranglings over which to use and couldn’t be inclusive to the UK as a whole.

I’d like to see the county names resurrected (minus the ones that are currently used for the T23’s) or failing that then as others have suggested using F’s, H’s or I’s as a logical progression of the alphabetized system, probably using the cream of the crop allocated in 2 sub-groups to the ASW and GP variants respectively.

Many many years ago when we still thought we might see another 6 or at least another 2 Type 45’s I often used to ruminate on possible names. Decoy, Defiance, Discovery, and of course the unbeatable Dreadnought were my favourites!

Challenger
Challenger
December 2, 2013 10:33 am

P.S

Anyone have any idea on names for MARS SSS? I was thinking the Castle Class would be suitable seen as they will be supply ships and are set to replace the Forts.

Fedaykin
December 2, 2013 10:44 am

Well I would be happy with an HMS Cromwell personally.

Alex
Alex
December 2, 2013 11:22 am

Admirals uncommemorated: Cunningham, Ramsay, Vian. WW1 – Keyes, would have to be a submarine surely? Goodenough might have deserved it but the nickname would be Not.

x
x
December 2, 2013 11:39 am

@ Simon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_belt

@ All

A mix of J and K names for T26.

Ian Skinner
Ian Skinner
December 2, 2013 12:36 pm

Always thought Devastation and Terror would be good names for two of the new SSBNs should they ever be built.

Chris
Chris
December 2, 2013 12:42 pm

IS – come now! Far too violent and threatening for the modern liberal – sorry Chris B I meant leftie – sensibilities. May I respectfully suggest HMS Fluffywuffy and HMS Cutelittlekitten?

Challenger
Challenger
December 2, 2013 1:11 pm

@X

‘There was a W-class on the drawing board. It was to follow on from the S-boats, but the project was cancelled and we got the T-boats which are an improved S’

I believe the W class was essentially going to be batch 2 Trafalgar’s planned for the 1990s until the end of the Cold War and Options For Change put an end to that, so we instead got no SSN’s built for a decade, the complete loss of all of the knowledge and skills needed for such an ambitious project and had to reinvent the wheel at considerable time and cost when it came to the Astute’s.

I think (someone correct me if I’m wrong) that an 8th Trafalgar boat was half considered before the SSN force got cut back to just 12 boats in the early 1990s? 14 SSN’s (6 Swiftsure’s + 8 Trafalgar’s) with the former ones being replaced on time with 4-6 evolved versions of the latter would have been a far more sensible and effective approach than the short-sighted and half arsed one we got.

a
a
December 2, 2013 3:06 pm

Well I would be happy with an HMS Cromwell personally.

It’s been tried – one of the old dreadnoughts – but the King put his foot down and told Churchill (then First Lord) that like hell was he launching a ship named after a famous regicide.

If you wanted a name for an air defence ship, why not HMS Deliverance?

“No, no, that’s a bosun’s whistle. It just sounds like the squeal of a pig.”

a
a
December 2, 2013 3:09 pm

There are lots of old RN ship names starting with D that sound a damn sight fiercer than Duncan

“Admiral Duncan”, I am afraid, means only one thing to modern Londoners at least and it isn’t “awesome victory at Camperdown”.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 2, 2013 3:22 pm

Good point TD. I’d happily go along with HMS Maggie, but I don’t think that HMtQ would…. Apparently, they didn’t get on.

How about calling something floaty HMS Falkland? Or more sinisterly, something SSN? Then send it south for its’ maiden voyage, just to sort of show some intent? It would satisfy the Scots as well, Falkland being a proper Scots name.

a
a
December 2, 2013 3:58 pm

be thankful we don’t have the same system as the poor chaps over the pond
HMS Gordon Brown anyone

Some of theirs aren’t even presidents: Carl Vinson and Robert Stennis were a pair of ghastly bigoted old sods who happened to be in positions of power in Congress when they needed the money for the new carriers, and therefore got carriers named after them. The equivalent in terms of embarrassment would be for the new RN carriers to be something like HMS Ian Paisley and HMS George Galloway.

There was a lot of discussion a few years ago about selling the second QE to India immediately after it was built. In that case we should definitely call it the HMS Thatcher, in recognition of her sterling work in deciding to get rid of all the navy’s carriers just before the Falklands War broke out.

My grandfather commanded Daffodil (an MTB) in the Channel in 1940-42. I’m not sure if MTBs were proper HMS’s or merely numbered and were given pet names. But Daffodil?

I always thought MTBs were just numbered as well. Daffodil sounds more like a corvette? Though the only HMS Daffodil that a google brings up is a converted train ferry currently sitting on the sea bed outside Dieppe :)

Jay
Jay
December 2, 2013 4:15 pm

When we still had option open for T45 7 and 8 I was hoping for Druid and maybe Dynamo – would have been nice to have commissioned D39 for 75th anniversary of Dunkirk Evac. I’d quite like an R class for T26s – Rocket, Raider, Ranger, Rapid, Relentless

Fedaykin
December 2, 2013 4:17 pm

@a

Indeed I was aware of that story, what many people don’t know is there really was an HMS Cromwell albeit they named her as a bit of a prank.

Cr class destroyer – HMS Cromwell (R35) – commissioned 16th September 1946

How did they get away with it without the kibosh being put on it? Well, she was ordered in 1942, laid down in 1943 and launched in 1945 with the name HMS Cretan. Early 1946 it was decided to sell her to Norway so somebody with a sense of humour decided to quickly rename her HMS Cromwell. She spent a matter of weeks in commission as HMS Cromwell before the sale was completed and renamed as Bergen.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205120833

Jeremy M H
December 2, 2013 4:30 pm

@ a

I am not a huge fan of the USN naming system but I don’t think we need to resort to simply making things up to disparage that either.

Carl Vinson had been out of office for 10 years when the ship bearing his name was ordered. You can debate the merits of naming a ship after him (I probably wouldn’t due to his many views I disagree with) but he undeniably played a large role in helping prepare the USN for WWII when there was not great support or funds for building warships in the 1930’s. He is hardly someone who it is a travesty to honor by naming a ship after him. The same can be said about Stennis, he was out of office before the ship bearing his name would have been given a name.

Personally I would see the USN go back to naming its carriers in the fashion that was traditional to US Carriers and Battlecruisers and keep the individual names on Destroyers. But I could care less about the names so long as ships are being built.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 2, 2013 4:39 pm

a, re Daffodil. You’re right, but it’s bloody odd. Grandfather was Wavy Navy, and wartime only service. He commanded an MTB.

I’ll have to ring up mother to find out more. Maybe her memory is off. I only recall Grandfather until 1973 when he died.

Martin Gibson
Martin Gibson
December 2, 2013 4:49 pm

Could the converted train ferry that served as HMS Daffodil have operated as a depot ship for MTBs?

Engineer Tom
Engineer Tom
December 2, 2013 4:54 pm

It seems to me that it is a 50/50 chance that they will either name the T26’s/OPV’s based off a subject or follow a letter designation. (All other ships in the pipeline have already been named). I personally would like to see the OPV’s follow a subject based designation, maybe lakes, Windermere, Neagh, Loch Lomond. Or there is the Ford-Class or Dark-Class. Then for the T26 I would favour following a letter based format. What i don’t want to see is city or town based names, counties is better but still Dragon applies to the whole of Wales, where as a Welsh county name would only apply to a small area.

x
x
December 2, 2013 5:05 pm

@ Chally

SSNOX, SSNOY, and SSNOZ design studies were to follow the S-boats. Cancelled as too expensive hence T. They would have been a W-class. The second batch of Ts was part of the Nott review; all about keeping the SSN force at 17 hulls.

x
x
December 2, 2013 5:10 pm

I would like a pair of LPDs called San Carlos and Gibraltar. Hopefully using Spanish names will please our Latin friends a bit. Or not.

El Sid
El Sid
December 2, 2013 5:40 pm

@RT
I’d guess your Daffodil was an unofficial name as you saw with aircraft – possibly a Welsh CO? You might want to have a poke around
http://www.unithistories.com/units_british/RN_MTBs.html

There were two other HMS Daffodils, the original was a Mersey ferry commandeered for the Zeebrugge Raid in 1918, and it was briefly applied to a Flower-class corvette in 1940 until they realised the duplication before commissioning and renamed it HMS Dianella.

John Hartley
John Hartley
December 2, 2013 6:40 pm

I have a naval book from 1988, that said the follow on to the Trafalgar class had the designation SSN20.

El Sid
El Sid
December 2, 2013 7:24 pm

@JH
SSN20 (aka the W-class) was the original Trafalgar follow-on – a big, expensive boat equivalent to the Seawolf. Fortunately the Cold War ended before we started building it (unlike the USN with Seawolf). We then flirted with a simple Batch 2 Trafalgar Class (B2TC) before Barrow persuaded HMG to put the improved Trafalgar kit in a bigger hull that could share a reactor design with the Trident boats – which became Astute.

SSNOX/Y/Z were generation designations used for the early design stages, so SSNOX turned into the S-boats, SSNOY the T-boats and the SSNOZ project covered both SSN20 and B2TC.

x
x
December 2, 2013 7:43 pm

@ El Sid

My source says SSNOX, SSNOY, and SSNOZ were all studies for the follow on class to S. Not that OX was S, OY was T, and OZ would have been W.

Rocket Banana
December 2, 2013 8:35 pm

Thanks Chuck.

El Sid
El Sid
December 2, 2013 8:39 pm

@x
Nah – see eg http://books.google.co.uk/books?ei=8OqcUry6NYOP7AaO3oCYCw&id=3XhKAQAAIAAJ&dq=ssnox (The Nuclear Engineer, 1984 volume 25), or there’s more available of http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SukdHyn8lXoC&pg=RA1-PT152

They didn’t know which hull would be the new design, in the end Swiftsure was SSN07 (and Trafalgar SSN13, hence SSN20 for the Trafalgar successor). So the new design was referred to as SSN0x, commonly rendered as SSNOX.

They then changed the last letter for subsequent generations, even though it wasn’t strictly logical and they could have used SSN1X and SSN2X given the way the hull numbers worked out.

x
x
December 2, 2013 8:46 pm

@ El Sid

Ok. :)

Goes to show you mustn’t believe everything you read in books. Even books written by eminent naval architects……… :)

Rocket Banana
December 2, 2013 8:46 pm

Thanks also to x, the link at the bottom of the wiki page is a little more detailed.

x
x
December 2, 2013 8:51 pm

Oh the shame. I point somebody to a Wikipedia article that is actually correct. And on the same day reference a real book written by a credible author that is wrong. :)

@ Simon

Chuck is right. I just that article would help carry the topic on.

El Sid
El Sid
December 2, 2013 9:48 pm

@x
Would that eminent naval architect have the initials DKB by any chance? :-) I guess he was in the thick of it when the paranoia was at its height and misinformation was in full flow. Since I get really pernickety about references, here’s an official source using SSNOY as far back as 1970 (Trafalgar was laid down in 1979) :
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C11240681

x
x
December 2, 2013 10:04 pm

@ El Sid

Um. Yes. But the actual reference I was looking for re W, not project numbers, is in another book. But I can’t remember which one. And I have too many to look through……..

John Hartley
John Hartley
December 2, 2013 10:35 pm

Thinking of W names to add to Warrior & Warspite, what about Wolfhound? Believe it was a destroyer vital in Operation Dynamo. The USN keeps pinching RN names so why not have a HMS Wasp?

Tango14
Tango14
December 3, 2013 4:51 am

Interesting. Perhaps you should consider that great community in Newfoundland, a former colony: Dildo, yeah, HMS Dildo.
That has potential.

Jackstaff
Jackstaff
December 3, 2013 5:08 am

Wotcher — perfect thread on which to drop by.

@ John Hartley,

Warspite, Warrior, Wasp, and William V (my lips to Liz 2.0’s ears) would do very nicely for the Successor program if it goes ahead as planned, remembering too a Warspite (S103) was the third of the fleet’s SSNs, following hard by and justly to Dreadnought and Valiant (a fellow QE-class battleship.)

@ all,

If we’re stuck with T26s (I have in past tenures at the barstool grumbled enough about how “frigates” that are not-quite-thorough-enough destroyers aren’t the way forward) then I rather like Gs. There have been some good ones (Garland was a nice catch, btw) and I have a particular fondness for HMS Glowworm and the doughty Lt Cdr Roope, who got his VC belatedly but thanks to the Hipper’s own captain whose heavy cruiser the outmatched Glowworm had tried so hard to sink. If we can shift away from the alphabet, a delightfully impolitic Battle class (they were good little ships, too) would be nice. Could even throw in HMS Freetown (first forward base of the West Africa Squadron) as a reminder that not all the RN’s finest hours have involved sinking Germans and Frenchmen (and Spaniards, and Italians, and Argentines, and Danes, and Americans ….)

Loved the Culture Ship suggestions. On that front squaring the circle with RT’s typically lusty Weapon class would be nice: “HMS Fecking Big Pointy Thing,” “HMS Don’t Ask, It Goes Boom,” “HMS Brute Force First, Reason Later,” “HMS Our Foreheads Are Your Nightmare” (a sop to the Glesge shipbuilders), “HMS Serrated Metal Death,” “HMS I’ll Sodding Glass Yer,” “HMS How To Defend Yourself From A Man Attacking With a Piece of Fruit,” (very popular posting with the URNUs) etc., etc. As a matter of inter-service comity, how about “Eight Rounds Rapid” becomes the HMS Lethbridge-Stewart ;) Some of us retain a boyhood fondness for the Brig’s commando-besweatered simplicity. And his in-universe daughter Kate is quite alright for those of us old enough to appreciate her properly :)

Back to the semi-serious, I’d love to see a Bodicaea-class follow on the Astutes. The commemorative hull art (a la HMS Dragon — they should’ve kept that on, sod camouflage it was the best-looking man-o-war on the planet) would be a sight. And since the French have hit a budgetary train wreck with their Barracudas, perhaps we could get an eight Astute out of some sort of time-sharing arrangement if they begin paying off Rubises before Suffren gets commissioned? Surely this is the best chance we’ll ever have for HMS ‘Allo ‘Allo?

@ El Sid,

Totally with you on Queen Elizabeth (for 1.0 and 2.0) and Queen Victoria. Covers the three longest-reigning sovereigns since the Conquest and easily sentimental favourites. Also captures the right spirit for the very specific sort of capital ships they are.

@ all again,

Since we’re already traipsing around fancy if not fantasy, my vote for a T45 Batch 2 set (with Sonar 2087 added: it’s a blue water system when at its best, should cover major sea control/expeditionary efforts, and really the best defence for Falsane is revived MPA and a home-jersey SSN) would be:
HMS Duke of York (German battlecruisers beware…)
HMS Duke of Edinburgh
HMS Duchess (the baby mama, not Mrs. Talks to Trees)
HMS Devastation
HMS Dyfed (for the Welsh nats, for playing nice relative to the Scots’ performance :)
HMS Downshire (Ulster gets love also; if the constitutional calculus were to change during service life Defiance would indeed be a nice alternative)

Then get an 18-strong Battle class of stretched Venators (105-110m, borrowed Mk 8 with one careful user up front, a few quad-packed CAMM behind, SIGMA abaft against swarms and Darwin Award-winning pirates, Lynx in hangar, mission bay that can swap between a big fast boat with bootnecks a la the Dutch OPVs, a MCM mothership array, and a green/brown-water ASW array for hunting SSKs) as actual frigates rather than Achilles-heeled almost-destroyers. But that’s just me and some particularly lethal homebrewed blackberry “cider” talking :)

Jackstaff
Jackstaff
December 3, 2013 5:09 am

@ Tango14,

Tch, cheek ….

Chuck Hill
December 3, 2013 5:36 am

I would suggest that the T-26s reprise the names of the WWII vintage light cruisers of the Leander, Arethusa, Dido and modified Dido (Bellona) Classes (they are almost the same size). There are 25 of them including Ajax, Achilles, Neptune, Orion, Aurora, Galatea, Penelope, Argonaut, Naiad, Scylla, Sirius, Black Prince, Diadem, Royalist, and Spartan.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 3, 2013 9:55 am

@ Chuck Hill

HMS Dido?

Tenner to the first man with a paintbrush and the balls to fill in the missing letter. Should be enough space for it.

Tom
Tom
December 3, 2013 10:06 am

I do like the idea of ‘Culture’ style names. HMS ‘Just Don’t Even Think About It’? Following the Culture naming thread, we should perhaps follow their example and our warship class names titles like ‘Thug Class’ and ‘Murderer Class’. :)

Given the reduced size of the fleet and perhaps to get a good rotation of names we should go alphabetically in pairs. So some thing like this for the T26s:

Eagle, Emerald, Fearless, Formidable, Glorious, Gladiator, Hardy, Havok, Indomitable, Illustrious, Jupiter, Jaguar, etc etc

wf
wf
December 3, 2013 10:35 am

: HMS Don’t Even Think About It? Get Pepsi to sponsor it :-)

http://youtu.be/7JZ8iQ9P9iI

Chris
Chris
December 3, 2013 10:36 am

Chuck – indeed many of those names were also used on the fine Leander class frigates, the last of which (HMS Andromeda renamed INS Krishna when sold to the Indian Navy) was decommissioned in May 2012. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leander-class_frigate

El Sid
El Sid
December 3, 2013 1:37 pm

@Chuck – Ajax is already taken for the seventh Astute.


Since some of your fantasy T45+ will escort the Queen class carriers, surely they should be the Prince class? HMS Prince Philip would be ideal for diplomatic missions, although recruitment might suffer when details emerge of the initiation ceremony on HMS Prince Albert.

It also gives you some good historical names – Prince of Wales, Black Prince (to partner HMS Monmouth?) and there’s historical precedent for Prince Charles, William, Henry and George among others. Finally, just think of the export potential – Prinz Eugen, Dauphin Royal, Príncipe de Asturias, HMCS Prince Edward (Island) and the Falklands oil money could buy HMFS Prince Andrew.

a
a
December 3, 2013 4:13 pm

I’d guess your Daffodil was an unofficial name as you saw with aircraft – possibly a Welsh CO?

I was about to suggest something like that – though not if RT’s grandad was captain. Maybe it had a lot of Welsh crewmen?
(You wouldn’t call a ship HMS Leek, even unofficially. Not an auspicious name.)

Since some of your fantasy T45+ will escort the Queen class carriers, surely they should be the Prince class?

Excellent idea.
HMS Purple Rain, HMS Dirty Mind, HMS Let’s Go Crazy, HMS The Most Beautiful Warship In The World, HMS Warship Formerly Known As Prince

Jackstaff
Jackstaff
December 4, 2013 12:30 am

@a,

:)

@ El Sid,

A Prince-class would be wizard: there hasn’t been an HMS Black Prince in entirely too long. Especially since he was both a gifted and a delightfully unrefined thug, so an excellent name for a warship. As for HMS Prince Albert well … there’s this steep road in Cowes, pubs up one side, take a tactical at the top if you’re still young and hearty, pubs down the other. Run the new matelots out on a launch from Pompey, get ’em at the top of the hill when they don’t know their a**e from starboard, and you’re home ….

For that matter HMS Prince Eugene could be an entry into the home fleet as well (after all Marlborough became a Duke-class battleship), though given his lifestyle it would set off a whole new generation of “Andrew” jokes from the other services. We could get Austria to put up some of the cost for old times’ sake.

Principe de Asturias always puts me in mind of Chesterton’s paean to reactionary Catholicism (via Lepanto), “Don John of Austria is Riding to the Sea.”

(Back on fantasy fleets: I’d probably keep the 45-Pluses as D-ships just because of wanting to get two of the first batch somehow refitted with 2087. Then you’ve got yourself a batch of eight whose sole task is to generate three hulls as Task Group escorts plus more if things get low-hanging-fruit-shaped, and four on rotation to keep one big grey pointy death-dealer on station in the western Indian Ocean, and a second close enough to ready that it could act as a major FRE on relatively short notice.)

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 4, 2013 2:25 am

Daffodil mystery not solved, but very slightly cleared up.

Not an official name of the boat, but most probably unofficial. Mother has looked at a photograph of him when he was first Lieutenant (or 2IC of a boat, I think???) in 1940, and it’s clearly MTB 106, and he was in Portsmouth or nearby. A/S Lt RW Yates RNVR. He took command of an MTB (she does not know the number) in 1941, initially in Gosport and then moved around the coast to Suffolk in 1942 where she grew up on the estate during the remainder of the war. Her mother and she only returned to Chelsea in 1946.

She says that he also had several horses and ponies after the war, and she (aged 7-10) in the late 40s was given Daffodil to ride as the most docile pony, so I think that Daffodil was a name he particularly liked, not especially Welsh with which he had no known connection and certainly not the formal name of his command.

So, I think it was his fancy to call his boat Daffodil. I however rather like some of the names suggested above, especially by Jackstaff: “HMS Don’t Ask, it goes Boom”. Quite brilliant.

Any love for HMS Bayonet? Observer and I rather missing those jolly useful things that didn’t get much issued in the 80s and 90s. Nice and caring name, I think.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 4, 2013 2:46 am

Bloody auto-eat post monster still infesting TD’s servers.

It might appear above, several hours later. But if it doesn’t, I was speaking too soon. Phone call to mother reveals her memory that Grandfather’s boat’s name of Daffodil was probably a pet name, because initially he was the First Lieutenant of MTB 106, then she thought that he commanded his own MTB after that in 1942. But she was only 3, so I don’t imagine knew very much.

Now, I’ve discovered this web page: http://www.unithistories.com/officers/RNVR_officersY.html . And there he is: Alan Yates (his real initials were RW, but he liked to be called Alan). And not only is Daffodil mentioned as a “rescue”, but he got an MiD for it. Whatever it was (I know what an MiD means).

Anyone nautical can help me interpret what the “rescue Daffodil” 17.03.45 means?

Also, he commanded MGB 333 (Motor Gun boat), not an MTB. The difference? (apart from guns and torpedoes – I mean in the employment of such boats).

In case the eaten post does not appear, he kept horses and ponies after the war, one of which ponies he called Daffodil. He also was a brilliantly talented carpenter – made significantly complex wooden things as a hobby, including an ingeniously extending kitchen table that’s in my house. He made a 33 foot sailing dinghy himself which he took my mother on over the Channel to St Malo for her 18th birthday present to spend a weekend at some grand hotel. The boat was sold for death duties in 1973.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 4, 2013 3:00 am

Even better, this is a photo of MGB 333: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Mgb_333_FL16326.jpg

Looks quite jaunty.

Observer
Observer
December 4, 2013 3:58 am

Interesting RT, that’s some history.

Chris
Chris
December 4, 2013 7:54 am

RT – 17 March 1945 was when HMS Daffodil hit the mine that sank her. http://impossiblesongs.blogspot.co.uk/2007/01/hms-daffodil.html

dave haine
dave haine
December 4, 2013 9:22 am

HMS Bayonet, Dirk Stilleto, Kiris, Dagger, Kukri, & Sgian dubh

Add swords and you have HMS Rapier, Claymore, Sabre, Cutlass, Longsword, Scimitar, and of course Broadsword

…..Slightly fighty sounding…

Tom
Tom
December 4, 2013 10:06 am

@DH & RT – How about a reprise of the Weapon Class Detroyer names: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon-class_destroyer

Dunservin
Dunservin
December 4, 2013 10:33 am

@RT

Temporary Lieutenant Alan YATES, R.N.V.R. (Sheffield) was among 14 naval personnel gazetted for the award of a Mention in Despatches on 10 July 1945. Three of the awards were posthumous. Collectively, the MiDs were awarded:

For bravery, great endurance and devotion to duty whilst serving in H.M. Ships Daffodil and Manners.

See http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/37170/supplements/3561.

HMS MANNERS was a Captain class frigate torpedoed off the Isle of Man by U-1051 on 26 Jan 1945. As has been stated, the converted train ferry HMS DAFFODIL was mined and sunk off Dieppe on 18 Mar 1945 so it would appear that the awards were made in connection with these two events.

T/Lt Alan Yates RNR appears to have served in MGB 333 at some time and I should be able to elicit more information from the Navy Lists of the period shortly; watch this space. However, I am puzzled why there should be any confusion about his first name(s) because these are official records.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 4, 2013 11:08 am

Thanks Dunservin and Chris.

Reading Chris’ link it appears that MGB 333 was part of the rescue operation. Daffodil struck the mine on th 17th, but did not sink until the 18th. 333 was I suspect only one among several boats that would have tried to help, in her case by picking sailors up from the sea.

I can’t vouch for this comment, but it is from Chris’ link:

“I was on duty steering a course for home when the explosion occured at about 11.20 pm. After a dreadful time in the icy sea ,a MGB {ex German E Boat} .came alongside the carly float we were clinging to . A rope ladder was lowered , but climbing it was impossible due to our condition. A line was then lowered and with great difficulty I managed to get the bight {loop} under the arms and over the shoulders of the three other men glinging to the float . It was a hazardous time each one being hauled up the steep side of the boat due to the heavy swell and the fear of the man being rescued slipping out of the loop back into the pitch black night and icy sea.fortunately this did not occur . Once on board board we were given Rum and the crew worked relentlessly to recover ou circulation and body temperatures . Unfortunately one of us was unable to be saved despite the valient efforts of the crew men working on him. The MGB 333 took us into Dieppe wher wrapped in blankets we were put into Ambulances and taken to an American field Hospital for several days , being allowed attend the funeral of shipmates burriel’s in the Canadian Cemetry again’st their normal procedure “

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 4, 2013 11:23 am

It seems MGB 333 had some fighting form. This from the obituary of Grandfather’s predecessor as the CO::

9/3/43 An action with E Boats off Smith’s Knoll
HMS Blencathra, HMS Windsor MGB 321 and MGB 333, ambush 7 Boats of the Second. S-Flotilla attacking Convoy FS.1074. MGB 333 rams S 29. “We hit her about 20ft from the stern and I felt my boat rise up and partly ride over her – and then the E Boat broke. The stern came off and slid down my starboard side – we had gone straight through (Memoirs of Donald Gould Bradford quoted in his Daily Telegraph obituary 8/7/95)

He took command in mid December 1943, so presumably the boat had been dragged off for repairs for a few months.

Anyway, I like the sound of the fight in that boat. Ramming speed!

HurstLlama
HurstLlama
December 4, 2013 1:26 pm

“Once on board board we were given Rum …”

Not sure that giving rum to treat hypothermia would be approved of by today’s medics. I sometimes think our forefathers were a tougher breed, perhaps we are witnessing reverse evolution.

Does anyone know if hot, sweet tea still the army’s panacea for everything bar a stomach wound?

x
x
December 4, 2013 1:31 pm

Apparently all Army requirements are pre-printed so,

1. Boiling Vessel

:)

El Sid
El Sid
December 4, 2013 1:47 pm

Since we mentioned Principe de Asturias, apparently it’s been bought by Angola of all places, along with an old Newport LST, a Descubierta converted to minesweeper mothership, an OPV and PC :

http://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/defensa/Solucion-Armada-Angola-Principe-Asturias_0_2172382745.html

To give you an idea of the bonkersness of this, a full complement on the PdA alone is 830, and the entire Angolan Navy is 1000 strong. OTOH since their big issue is protecting the offshore oil rigs from piracy they may have decided that their best bet is to use the PdA as an offshore lilypad for helicopters and Marines. Not sure what happened to their plans to buy German FACs. No doubt the Angolans’ great mates from China will be taking a look around.

x
x
December 4, 2013 2:01 pm

@ El Sid

Gosh I bet Alexis Salmond is kicking himself missing that bargain. It would have filled their command ship requirement………..

I bet the Chinese actually bought it for them, I am not sure what they would learn from such a simple design, but I bet there is something of value.

a
a
December 4, 2013 2:39 pm

Not sure that giving rum to treat hypothermia would be approved of by today’s medics. I sometimes think our forefathers were a tougher breed

Well, or maybe not. It didn’t work for all of them: “…Unfortunately one of us was unable to be saved despite the valient efforts of the crew men working on him…”

dave haine
dave haine
December 4, 2013 5:11 pm

@ Tom
Yes, suitably fighty.

I quite like the idea of commanders:

Walker, Ramsey, Horton, Pound, Cunningham, Conningham, Harris, Dowding, Joubert, Slessor, Alexander, Mongomery, Dempsey, Horrocks, Slim

Which you could stretch to Blackadder (Yes seriously- WW1 divisional commander)… You’d have to, wouldn’t you