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S O
S O
December 1, 2013 5:37 pm

The Davy Crocket gun usually appears on such lists.

Super-heavy AAA (15 cm and up) belongs into such lists as well with at least one representative.

John Hartley
John Hartley
December 1, 2013 5:44 pm

What about the gay bomb? I seem to remember the yanks experimented with sex phermerones. The idea was that if a dispenser bomb sprayed them on enemy troops, they would forget about fighting & have a gay orgy instead.

DaveS
DaveS
December 1, 2013 7:47 pm

@S O
Some 8 inch guns of naval origin were installed around Dover for coast defence in WW2. The mounts had 70 degree elevation, and it’s written that they used to send up salvos during air raids to ‘discourage the enemy’!

M&S
M&S
December 1, 2013 8:02 pm

Davey Crockett did what it was supposed to. It would have done it /better/ had they abandoned the lightweight launcher off a jeep or APC approach via XM28/29 external recoilless rifle slamming a shell into the back of a secondary watermelon sized nuclear projectile as a place kicker launch method.

You simply make the weapon sensible as a single-tube Ontos loading under armor (similar to the Dragonfire on Wiesel of today).

Or apply it to something a little larger like an update of the SturmMorser Tiger with a much bigger breach firing a more energetic charge and abandoning the need to erect the weapon tube altogether.

Given that even 1960s tank warfare was far to rapid moving to be trusted to remote artillery under tacfire networking, having direct release nuclear systems to stop 100-200 strong breakouts into west Germany would have been quite nice.

With Swann tech down to a level where a few ounces of plutonium could generate .015KT wardets, I would, by far, rather have small nuclear blasts _aimed_ with minimal uplift than massive detonations from the likes of 10-20K B43/B57 which are essentially lobshot lofted or over the shoulder tossed from a pilot who is so max-puckered on AAA, SAMs and Oh Yes, the _Hiroshima Sized Nuclear Blast_ he is about to set off at his feet, as to be utterly incapable of an accurate delivery.

The bigger problem with the M388 is that testing showed you could blow one up right in front of an advancing tank wedge with typical unit spacing and for-sure knock only about out 1-2 vehicles unless you specifically went to ER. The Russians studied this problem, came to the same conclusion, added lead shielding to their A-level T-55 and 62 and carried on.

Superheavy AAA is an artifact of it’s times. Against a bomber stream 800 planes and 70-100nm long, it makes sense to anyone who doesn’t think in terms of guided effects because you want to defend the biggest slant you can from as few installations as possible.

The German use of 128mm flak towers over major cities would have been terrifying had they only had the backwards wave oscillator technology to make a proper VT fuse. Imagine the effects when you consider that an Me-109 ‘schwarm of the day’ fighter sweeping the channel islands at 30,000ft and 350mph were blown out of the sky by the first British use of radar laid, prox fuzed, AAA, only a year before the bomber offensive began.

Keep in mind as well that, thanks to Hispanic construction labor telling Mexico City who told Franco who told Hitler, the Germans knew full well about the B-29 and the Atomic Bomb from 1943 onwards. Now ask yourself: if there was no doubt that Hitler knew how big a program The Manhattan District effort was. And if he also had a really good idea about the capabilities of a 30-35,000ft B-29 to deliver same. If he further didn’t have the chromium or magnesium to spare for turbos for his already ineffective RVD Jagdwaffe. And if men like Speer who was anything but a fool interviewed the Uranium Club pipesmokers and found them to be incompetent dweebs at best.

How much of _And Now The Story Can Be Told_ is in fact simply a further whitewash withholding of dramatic levels of secondary black nuclear programs run by the SS out of Austria and Czechoslovakia? Programs that created the very shaped charge, IR fuze and boosted fission baselines which men like Teller later admitted were the fundamentals behind the Teller-Ulam process? Oh, and what about Buna 102? The largest synthetic rubber plant ever built, with funding levels -at least- equal to those of Oakridge yet one which never, by it’s own administrator’s admission, produced a pound of synthetic rubber in a country which basically invented the process? Could it be that the principle method of gas diffusion which another German (with the misfortune of being a Jew) invented and which was the sole process _not_ admitted to being under investigation by the Germans (centrifuge, sluice, thermal diffusion etc. but not the simplest, easiest, method?) was in fact tested here? Consider that Buna 102 was in the heart of the Auschwitz complex with plenty of water, power and rail access as well as mega industrial concerns in electronics and chemistry already nearby.

Hitler is not nuts. He may be psychotic but he knows beyond doubt that there is no way to win the war by no later than mid-summer, 1943. With the Allies in Sicily and the Russians on the loose after Kursk, it’s just a matter of time.

The V-2 is a pointless weapon, even with Lietstrahl and Hawaii, it cannot guarantee hits on point targets sufficient to obliterate England’s industrial and port infrastructure before a cross channel invasion, sometime in the spring or summer of 1944. Furthermore it steals all manner of rare strategic elements already in critical shortage within the Reich.

Ignoring the ‘Uranium Oxide’ shipped in gold lined casks instead of cloth sacks as is normal for yellow cake, U-234’s lading lists include things like diamond dies and zirconium and measurement instruments, none of which have ANY application in the quantities involved, except in a nuclear program. If Hagerloch is as far as the German got to a reactor (and damn lucky it wasn’t a sphere instead of a cube or it would have caused a major meltdown and steamexplosion), wherefore all these critical supplies which the Japanese _specifically requested_?

Okay. Now let’s put all together:

Could Hitler have stopped the B-29 with the air defenses he had? No.

Could Wasserfall have stopped the invasion of France and thus the turning of the war from a strategic to a tactical advance, across Europe? No.

As alternative to converted He-177B, waiting in Norway, could the V-2 have stopped the Allies cold if it had had A-9 glide wings and maybe a pilot to send it another 150nm to blow up an atomic bomb over the Allied European capitals? Maybe. If the source for the nukes was Austria or Czech Republic and Hitler retained a sufficient army in Norway to put up a credible defense of a divided Reich.

Would the U.S. respond with nuclear weapons in turn? Why not? If England is functionally decapitated, nothing a peace seeking population can do will stop the fall of more V-2 or the USAAF launch of B-29s from the West Country, making a smoking hole out of Berlin. If we have bombs within a credible window equivalency to the Germans (say 6 months).

At this point, super heavy flak makes sense because it’s the least resource draining option to hiting single nuclear interdictors and it theoretically allows the use of alternative RF sources to create a VT capable of engaging B-29s above the effective ceiling at which contemporary fighters and the 88mm could ballistically reach or fly, let alone fight.

Finally, we have only the ‘Allied Side’ of the story about the Plutonium nuke which is filled with a strange silence when it comes to why the Germans, who had yet to create a functioning atomic pile, suddenly decided to skip the uranium bomb when they had four separate Uranium separation programs and their isotope sluice and G3 centrifuges were in fact superior to our own gas diffusion system by several orders of magnitude.

What we don’t have is proof that the Germans didn’t know how the theory worked. Diebner, Harteck and Von Ardenne certainly knew more than the incompetent traitor Heisenberg did because their efforts were what created the implosion method, the centrifuge and the theory of boosted fission which was what made the Davey Crockett work.

When Heisenberg tried to fool his fellows at Farm Hall once more by stating that the mass required for the atomic bomb was too large for any realistic production system to have made one in only two years, Paul Harteck took one look at him, called him a fool, and _from memory_ recited the formula which gave a number closer to the real centimeter density separation for neutron strike radius. That number, which was better than the one the U.S. used (a fact not proven until the 1960s, when we had computers to take things out a couple hundred decimal places), by itself, tells you how much mass you need to create a functional atomic pile from that pile to breed plutonium or HEU using U238 or TH90 to reduce to U235 or U233.

How did he know when Herr Professor the Nobel Prize Winner did not? It couldn’t be because he had a working pile. Because Heisenberg, in a fit of jealousy, named him a traitor to get the uranium he had been allocated to run his low temperature experiments back for his own ‘machinen’ pile. A test reactor in Berlin’s suburbs which Heisenberg subsequently caused to blow up in a massive meltdown that turned the whole complex into an irradiated swamp after the Berlin fire department brought it under control.

Here’s a Hint: Harteck was also chief consultant on SS work being done under the auspices of IG Farben. Out of Buna 102 in Auschwitz. One of whose unacknowledged achievements was how to separate Ammonia using distillation techniques similar to petrochem refinement, into heavy water. Heavy Water + Lithium = Lithium Deuteride. LD6 in a plasticized form, will create an enormous wave of neutrons when struck by a large gamma photon spread inherent to a small quantity of plutonium isomer cascading from metastable to base state. These neutrons, when striking a secondary wad ‘fool it’ into thinking the primary is twice as big and the tickling the dragons tail results in massively pumped yields from tiny material quantity beginnings.

Such is what the Swann Process is about.

Manfred Von Ardenne’s last wartime project was the isolation of Lithium from granite feldspar and saltbrine and chemically compositing it together with deuterium, nominally for ‘medical purposes’. Some other interesting factoids about Von Ardenne: When Fritz Todt died, he became Hitler’s personal confidant on all scientific matters related to nuclear weapons. When the Soviets came to his estate outside Berlin, they were amazed by the sophistication of his lab, including multiple advanced cyclotrons with better magnetic capture than any of the Beta Calutrons. He employed a Jewish lab assistant who, brutally tortured by both Soviets and Nazis before the war, still managed to publish the paper dealing with the boosting of fusion. He was responsible for over 600 patents before and after the war, including those related to the first scanning electron microscope and the first television. He was self-educated and lived outside the University network of tenure by alliance. He was also the ONLY man to pick up, not one but two Stalin prizes for his work in radiology and the Soviet Atomic Bomb. When Ivy Mike was set off, the Soviet Observer laughed and congratulated us on building the worlds first exploding meat packing plant. Because we had to use supercooled hydrogen to create fusion. And the Soviets had done that years before. When Von Ardenne came home to East Germany, he became one of their old heads on multiple government committees and his technologies trading company became the largest employer in East Germany.

The Germans had the bomb. They got it late because we used the ‘dehousing’ justification to attack every city center (including Hamburg where Harteck worked on the Centrifuge) where our Ultra knew they were working on the system components. We extended this bombing east, to Czechoslovakia, when word leaked of the SS black projects efforts under Hans Kammler. What was called ‘Operation Frantic Joe’ was in fact an emergency response to this discovery.

All of WWII is a based on lie.

Who the bad guys were, what the outcome was. And what the ‘wonderwaffen’ really was about. Patton knew it. Because he was the one whom we charged with running 300km past the Elbe force demarcation lines to get to Pilsen and Prague before the Russians did to evacuate the nuclear secrets from Kammlers industrial labs in the Skodawerke there. He changed his mind about who we should have been fighting, based on what he saw.

Compared to this, the truth of ‘what is a stupid weapon’ are things like the Spitfire. The Sherman tank. And the M1 Garand. Because we played dice with the devil in the interests of a making a profit and shattering Europe as a Colonial Power. Not with a real desire to defeat Nazi Germany as quickly and efficiently as possible.

England would have been better off keeping her Empire and letting Hitler and Stalin go at it, tooth and nail, on their own. The U.S. was trying to destabilize and undermine Europe’s nationalization at a continental level which would have made the 20th Century one of European rite of passage, just as 19th had been our own test of fire. The three wars we fought thus come down to being a complete waste of century while the urge to prove ourselves better socialists than the communists now stands at the threshold of tearing down Western Civilization itself.

Nothing worse than a stupid weapon. Except the stupid use of one.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 1, 2013 9:20 pm

I always thought the SMG was pretty crap, but it was meant to be an improvement on the Sten gun, so God knows how bad that was.

I went to war once wearing an SMG. It really was ghastly (almost as much as the Browning 9mm on my hip that required a 7 inch index finger to ease springs). Thank Christ that the next war I had a self-bought Sig Sauer and somewhere in the back of the wagon an SA80 A1.

Bring back the SLR, for me. The only weapon I ever felt subconsciously connected to.

S O
S O
December 1, 2013 9:45 pm

@DaveS

Germans first…Three 30.5 cm guns were modified for up to 70° elevation on Helgoland and downed four aircraft on Jan 4th ’44. The Japanese also had success with 15 cm guns in ’44.

The problem is that a 8.8 cm gun costs about twice as much as a 7.5 cm gun (best ones good for 11 km ceiling).
10.5 cm guns cost almost twice as much as 8.8.
12.8 cm …
15 cm …
24 cm DP twin guns were meant to fight both aircraft AND battleships!
Biggest AA bang: Shrapnel shells in Yamato’s guns (Japanese, of course).

Heavies AAA got lucky occasionally, as did 80 cm Dora when it did hit a big bunker directly. The inefficiency on the other hand is near-suicidal.

dave haine
dave haine
December 1, 2013 10:09 pm

@ All

Urmmm….Did ST Mike really say what I think he did?

@ RT

I know what you mean with the SLR… Mind you being the clumsy oaf I was, i was always measuring my length by getting the barrel caught in something, in one case spectacularly doing a chaplinesque flip. I’m sure that’s why I ended up not being allowed anything but a Browning.

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 1, 2013 10:20 pm

DH,

The SLR was the most perfect length, and even more so with a bayonet attached (I only drew blood with a bayonet attached to an SMG – slightly wistful that I never got a chance with an SLR).

So, perfect for length. It was an extension of your arm and eye. It had a reassuring kick to it. You could drill a paint can at 800 metres. You knew that if you hit someone with a bullet, they were not going to bother you again (I confess perplexity at the very well-informed calibre debate that states that we want 6.4squillionths x Godmanchester: I don’t know, I’d prefer to go for overkill any day).

It was even brilliant in that for riots you could attach the forward webbing sling to your wrist, and then if some drunken Fenian grabbed the weapon, you could yank your arm back which would surprise them, and place the barrel into your hands so that you could then smack them around the side of the head with the hefty butt. After all, they started it by touching the weapon, so it was “game on” in Yellow Card terms. Normally, that put them straight into the back of the Landrover unconscious so you could go through their pockets for useful int, then drop them off (literally) at the back of the RVH A&E an hour later.

dave haine
dave haine
December 1, 2013 10:41 pm

@ RT

I liked the SLR- on the range, with a slightly extended butt plate (don’t know why, as i’m only average height, I just found it more comfortable) I was a real dead-eye dick….didn’t need the L5 or L2 sight, I was nice an accurate over iron sights- like you say the length was ideal, I could get a good hold of it…

my problem was always when i was running about, being green and fierce… I’m not blaming the weapon, I’m blaming me…

as
as
December 2, 2013 12:23 am

ok not the weapon its self but how about the Russian autoloaders that use to rip of the crewman’s arm if he put it in the rong place.

a
a
December 2, 2013 12:43 pm

The Davy Crocket gun usually appears on such lists.

Or on an entirely separate list of Insane Things To Do With Nuclear Energy, also including the chicken-powered nuclear landmine, Operation Chariot, Project Orion and Project Pluto/SLAM (no, not PLUTO the D-day fuel line. The other one. The INSANE one.)

Observer
Observer
December 2, 2013 2:09 pm

As much as I dislike M&S’s wall of text posts, I’ve to agree that the Davy Crockett did what it was supposed to do. Area denial by radiation. It’s not meant to be an anti-tank weapon, it’s just meant to contaminate an area so badly it gets declared off limits to the hordes of Red infantrymen that they were expecting to flood into Germany.

As for a RR version, M&S has obviously never seen the size of the warhead on the Davy Crockett.

They were really into nukes those days, even their anti-air missiles had nukes, depth charges had nukes, shipkillers had nukes. I have an old newspaper just past the end of WWII where someone gave an interview that nuclear power will end world hunger, which makes a certain cockeyed bit of sense, until the downsides started rearing their ugly head.

RT, nice to see that you love your SLR, pity I’m on the small side, it would have been a bit too big for me. And damn it, they need to give us our bayonettes back.

KRT
KRT
December 2, 2013 4:47 pm

I concur with M&S on the issue that the powers fighting WWII were expecting the nuclear weapon to be the decisive wonder weapon. Nuclear fission and its potential had been discovered shortly before the war and all entities involved pursued this new weapon.
The story is not dissimilar to WWI, when the contemporaries expected poison gas to work the same wonders.
Other than nuclear and chemical warfare, there was ongoing research on biological warfare in these pre-penicillin times. From this point of view, all powers in WWII were equipping themselves with the tools to unleash far more destruction upon each other, but held back until a turning point had been reached where such use would be unilateral. V1-3 kept up the image of vulnerability to German strikes and possibly denied the same fate as did happen to Japan.
Concerning the working technology, some German works might have been closer to successful application than others, but the German system as a whole was deeply ridden by cronyism and enforced labour. Both on their own are capable to darken the route to a successful technologically demanding application, the more so, if it is associated with gaining increased influence. Looking at things from this perspective, it was logical, before one shot being fired, that the Third Reich would not be sustainable and thus lose the big war they prepared for. Intelligence figured that out early on and Franco was thus wise enough to keep out of his ideological comrades’ adventures. On technical issues, one is often wiser in hindsight than in foresight and from a general picture, rather than from within nifty technical details.

as
as
December 2, 2013 5:39 pm

There are a lot to choose from
Little David American 36 inches (910 mm) caliber mortar
M65 Atomic Cannon

wf
wf
December 2, 2013 6:52 pm

The atomic cannon fulfilled it’s purpose: it got the Chinese to agree a ceasefire :-)

M&S
M&S
December 2, 2013 7:09 pm
Reply to  KRT

@KRT,
The Japanese wanted access to 2.5 tons of Beryllium, a metal so toxic that the slightest wiff of it’s powered form can kill you in a few days but which has so many uses, from radio source to neutron reflector that it’s employment in the nuclear industry is a given, to this day. _In Reactors and Pit Walls_. The U.S. could not use such a material in it’s weapons because they could not figure out how to manufacture it, German had tons to spare but no working reactor.

The Japanese also wanted thallium, zirconium, diamond dies, neon gas, core clamps and other equipment and materials _in large quantities_ (on the public record from the Ultra recorded lading lists of U-873 and U-234) which Germany flatly would not have to give away if she was still in a pre-pile stage on her own reactor. And Japan would not need if she was still in a primitive state of predevelopment on her own.

The same can be said for Schlicke and his ‘fuses’ at a time when we had no functionally effective means to implode a sphere of plutonium, simultaneously, with electromechanical detonator systems and the Germans, without plutonium, had no need for such at all. FIve days after Schlicke landed, the chief fuse engineer at Los Alamos interrogated him (we have the documents listing his name in the public record) and a week later, they were drilling holes in the core to allow IR light to be flashed through the pit to detonate all the fuzes simultaneously.

There was a constant run of 20 or so U-Boats, to and from the Reich and Jakarta throughout the midwar years and yet, in 1944 the desperation of the Allies to stop these runs grew so severe that we were using /other subs/ to shoot at them. Compromising the Ultra code and generally tracking them down, in the deep Atlantic and Indian oceans for no better reason than….??

Groves’ book states that there was only the Uraneinveren effort in Hagerloch, yet we now we know that there were at least five major efforts, two of which involved betatrons. The official histories _to this day_ admit only to the Curie one in Paris. A betatron will not create an atomic bomb, even the improved models that Von Ardenne used which were an order of magnitude better than the Beta Calutrons of Stanford.

What they will do is rapidly make enough radiosources to start a ‘stew’ of heavy water or graphite and normal water in an alternating layer of simple, natural, uranium or thorium such that, within about six months, after being stored in nothing more than the equivalent of wine barrel technology, you have created enough plutonium to make a bomb.

Plutonium which, in comparison with U235/U238 can be simply and easily, chemically, separated.

One of the materials used to hold Plutonium in suspension and pull it away from it’s hotter cousin element Pu240 is mercury. And the Japanese also wanted /tons/ of that. So much so that U-864 is having to be ‘entombed’ in a concrete casement to prevent the stuff from further contaminating the Norwegian waters where a Brit sub sank her.

Here’s a couple more puzzlers: When Todt explained to Hitler what the atomic weapon meant, Hitler responded that the notion of weapons which could sterilize whole regions, not just of human but all life, making it impossible to live there for centuries was so abhorrent to him that he could not envision a moment when powers having that much to fear in their use, would not use them first. And so he forbade his people from building them. Yet in 1943, all this would have had to have changed.

Manfred Von Ardenne, in this same interval, was injured and nearly killed while inspecting a factory which he had put under contract to build certain gizmos. By a Mosquito strike. And the man who gave the game away was a magazine publisher who routinely fed the British data on all the Uraneinveiren’s most recent work, which he picked up from his weekly lunches with Walter Gerlach, chief of the Reich Education Board’s nuclear branch. Gerlach and Heisenberg having visited the heretofore unknown Von Ardenne at his estate, only days before.

We know that Hitler made an emergency trip to the Ohdruf Proving Grounds, sometime in late October or Early November, 1944. The same time that the British Interior Ministry issued a flash-traffic alert of a coming attraction nuclear event that sent the entire British emergency services bureaucracy scrambling into crisis mode.

We know this because, a year later the London Times reported it and the evidence is public domain accessible.

At Ohrdruf Hitler saw a demonstration of a weapon whose principle component was a purplish-red metallic liquid which, when detonated, created a 600m wide crater, the radiologic evidence for which has been found.

German labs certify, ‘on their honor’, that there is nothing too this (from test samples they examined) but strangely will not release the figures for Strontium and Barium which would differentiate any radiologic contaminantion from that of say, Chernobyl by simple presence as well as halflife age.

Meanwhile, Ohrdruf as indeed the tristate corners region which it encompasses, has the highest background gamma radiation locations in all off Europe. And no one will explain why.

Outside of Stadtilm in the old Wehrmacht proving grounds, they have found a concrete bunker structure so ‘hot’, radiologically, that it can only have been rendered that way via a runaway critical mass having melted down.

In the ruins of this blown apart building, they have found plutonium and graphite.

Which means that Grove’s assertion that there was only just the one experiment in Hagerloch and it never went critical is not only a lie on it’s face but a lie twice over (KWI accident and Stadtilm both proving that the Germans had in fact achieved criticality, if not stability, in their urgent desire to make plutonium ‘from scratch’.).

At the northern end of the valley system whose southern corners consist of Pilsen and Ohrdruf, there lies the Jonastahl complex. A bunker system dug deep into the side of a hill which was said to be ‘incomplete’ when captured yet which is so deeply troubling to the Western Powers that they have officially declared it off limits and all intelligence gathered from it to be unrevealable for 100 years after WWII.

Which, today, with the police state we live in and the lousy maintenance and cataloguing of archival materials, probably means forever.

All of which tells a functioning mind that JStahl wasn’t incomplete, it was Hitler’s wine cellar. Where he had those barrels of uranium plus radium cooking away to make plutonium.

Something which makes sense when you consider that Goebbels, as late as January 1945, was in fact hopeful because ‘there were things that needed finishing’ and if the German armies could hold out for just another six months, the Reich would be saved. They very nearly did.

And in June 1945, the only thing that could have saved Germany was nuclear weapons. Five minutes past midnight.

Why did the Germans so expend themselves trying to hold off the British and U.S. forces in the Wacht Am Rhein effort? Why kick the Western Allies in the teeth when you were on the verge of losing and the Soviets were already doing terrible things /to those whom they liberated/ in the Eastern provinces of Poland and Prussia. Why?

Maybe because the open North German Plain is a lousy place to stop a tank army when you are numerically shattered and have no air supremacy, as Patton’s mad rush with Third Army (including some horrendous fights in the Ohrdruf valley) to Czechoslovakia proves.

What’s the point of sending atomic material to Japan when Germany is about to be crushed and any conditional mercy by her conquerors likely to end in horror if the Japanese unleash German nuclear technology?

The key lies in that statement by Hitler: “We will be saved, five minutes past Midnight.”

You look at a Fedayin attacking a CS/CSS column in Iraq and see an illegal combatant. I look at a Werewolf and I see a Fedayin with a nuclear satchel charge. A small nuke is worthless in a city or against a fast moving battlefield formation. But you slow down to take a picture. You get lost in the burbs. Or you settle in to an occupation. And targeting changes.

Hitler was betrayed from the inside by ‘totalitarian optimism’ as bad information and/or sellout by the likes of Hans Kammler, author of the Warsaw Ghetto annihilations and supposed creator of the ‘enhanced’ death process in Auschwitz. A man whose disappearance /reeks/ of faked-death and yet who was not tried, even in absentia, as so many other Nazis were, at Nuremburg.

If there was a man to whom the Dulles Brothers, sitting in Berne, ‘who knew everything’ from their SS contacts in the negotiations to end the Italian campaign, would listen to about the German nuclear program, it was likely to Hans Kammler who was plentipoteniary of every German advanced rocket/jet/nuclear program in existence by the end of the war.

And who was never tracked down.

Hans Kammler who, according to popular myth, took the surviving example of a Ju-390 ‘truck’ from an airfield outside of Prague which was being held by a diehard SS division, and was never seen nor heard from, again.

Finally, we have Oppenheimer. A man who, according to Pfaf, third officer in charge of unloading the U-234s casks of ‘uranium oxide’, a man who wisely sheltered behind a lead shield while they propped open the casings.

Who is known to have later said: “The bombs were of German provenance.”

How do we fit his words into the narrative? Look at the Little Boy, and tell me it doesn’t look like the German wartime bombs in the SD range. As it certainly looks nothing like ours. Then also look at the records for the Oakridge and Hanford sites. Where, as late as March 1945, it was believed there would not be enough material for both a plutonium and a uranium bomb, before 1946. And where _Critical Mass_ shows that there was in fact no way _by physics_ to product Plutonium any faster but that they were using HEU as feed stock. Which blatantly contravenes any idea that Little Boy which had almost 132kg of U235, only 15-20% of this fissioned before explosive dissembly, was itself the product of Oakridge production.

Unless. The bomb was boosted (German design, LD6) or the bomb was fueled with HEU in those gold lined casks on U-234.

The Germans had the bomb, first. They were sending bomb making material to Japan in the wildest forlorn hope that the final remaining Axis partner, suitably nuclear equipped, could hold off the inevitable while German teenagers blew themselves up with 1-2KT suitcase weapons (which would have been the triggers for much larger bombs, had there been time), walking into Allied occupational garrisons, who were no longer too mobile and on their guard to be targeted, and pulling a string.

Somehow, somewhere, whether by double dealing from the inside, Hitler’s reticence if not final admission of the hopelessness of a cause lost. Or via sheer _luck_ as fast overrun, which left the Soviets to bleed like stuck pigs in Berlin while we ran south to the Reich Redoubt and Pilsen, the ten or twenty weapons which the Germans had were not used.

Which brings me back to stupid uses of weapons being worse than stupid weapons. The original Day-1 casualty figures for Olympic and Coronet looked _exactly_ like Overlord: 20-25,000 dead and another 5-10,000 injured. The 1-1.6 million dead ‘estimates’ came much later when we needed to justify avoiding a standup invasion when we could cold heartedly butcher 150-200,00 Japanese civilians instead.

Yet the alternative to invasion was NOT the violation of the Hague Laws of Landwarfare which absolutely forbid attacks on civilian targets or dual use targets without 24hrs warning. It was not Atomic Weapon deployment at all.

It was blockade and pesticides.

We had built up an INCREDIBLE quantity of (lethal) gas and spray tanks for use in the Japanese occupational effort to avoid another Okinawa cave campaign.

We could have blown bridges, salted rice fields, and attacked general infrastructure (no power, no radio/telephone, no R/T, no effective coordination of the basic day to day resupply of a heavily mountainous country with but few road and rail routes through it).

And the reason we did not do the moral thing, did not make the correct choice which was _as easy to see then as it is today_ (Because, in _15 Minutes_ Lemay admitted that if the war had ended in defeat, he would have been in the stocks for warcrimes, just on the existing incendiary burn down of all the other Japanese cities) was because we had a new weapon.

A weapon so stupid that to prove it could never be used again, it just had to be tested on live targets. Who posed no threat whatsoever.

And because of that STUPID FIRST USE OF A STUPID WEAPON we have opened ourselves up to any and all followup attacks, without warning or justification. Including that decreed by fatwa as issued by this idiot-
>
In 2003, at bin Laden’s request, Saudi cleric Nasser bin Hammed al-Fahd issued a fatwa authorizing the use of a nuclear weapon against U.S. targets: “If a bomb that killed 10 million of them and burned as much of their land as they have burned Muslims’ land were dropped on them, it would be permissible.”
>

http://carnegie.org/publications/carnegie-reporter/single/view/article/item/163/

Germany had the bomb first. She had every right, as any dying animal has a right, to defend itself by ‘all available means’. And yet the Germans didn’t. Even though a massed forced sitting before the Seelowe Heights was an ideal target, even for just a 1-2KT weapon.

And that is why you will never hear the truth admitted. Because the U.S. had absolutely no need to do anything but starve Japanese at a 1,000 people per day (= the prompt casualties of Hiroshima after 60 days of contemplation) and instead we butchered them without cause.

Because of that bad act, our government no longer has a right to draw a moral line in the sand with anyone when they will not admit the truth of what really happened with the German atomic arms program at the end of WWII.

Because they’re no longer lying to our enemies in a vicious but vital war. They’re lying to their citizens in an equally unnecessary attempt to further the Keynesian Death Spiral economics of an endless and unnececessary extension of the Cold War.

Bomb the world, invite the world. Isn’t that just sick.

WiseApe
December 2, 2013 7:12 pm

Easy one this. Saddam’s WMDs.

Jeremy M H
December 2, 2013 7:20 pm

M&S

You are positively off your rocker.

Observer
Observer
December 2, 2013 8:08 pm

….. M&S, I’m not sure if you are indulging in hyperbole or are really wacked out and believe your own posts…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berylliosis

You won’t die in a few days, it’s just a chronic allergic condition which will worsen on prolonged long term exposure.

As for the rest of it, there are huge chunks of errors.

Just to clarify, WTH are you implying that the “Purplish-reddish metallic liquid” is? Thorium? Thorium Fluoride’s a solid at room temperature, you need to heat is past 300? degrees to get it in liquid form. And it’s a clear liquid.

I’m starting to think that you read a bit too many conspiracy theories that your worldview is a bit mucked up. Impressive walls of text though. With enough “technical” details to seem legitimate at first glance, but by now, you have written huge posts on A2A warfare, MOUT and now nuclear physics, doubt is starting to creep in, especially on topics which some of us DO have experience with.

As for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as someone who’s country took the brunt of the Japanese genocide campaign, I say good riddance, drop a few more. It’s even more ironic that 2 of the most brutal Kemptai units indicted for massacres came from guess where? Karma’s a bitch, and God loves irony.

Edit: Nice one Phil.

Fluffy Thoughts
Fluffy Thoughts
December 2, 2013 8:11 pm

The stupidest weapon in history was V. I. Lenin and that freckin’ train to Helsinki Station. What was Uncle “Kaiser” Wilhelm doing…?

:tut-tut-tut:

He may have got a ceasefire on the Eastern Front but look what followed. And what followed that &c. …!

Then there is Bennie Mussolini. Something you really do not want thrown at the Greeks outwith confidence of competence: Unnessecary front opened that undermines Barborossa! But myself and HurstLlhama had this conversation many-a-moon-gone-past….

x
x
December 2, 2013 8:21 pm

I think M&S is alluding to……….

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_ciencia/flyingobjects55_32.jpg

According to the more imaginative spinning mercury at a high rate of knots generates an anti-gravity field.

as
as
December 2, 2013 8:44 pm

project Babylon super cannon

M&S
M&S
December 2, 2013 10:30 pm
Reply to  Observer

Observer,

I find much that is ridiculous in your own presumed beliefs as expertise, I do not call you out as being ‘wacked’ for it however.

>>
The first ‘magic’ material is beryllium, a metal which appears in every nuclear book published. A quarter of the weight of steel, it is very hard and brittle and extremely toxic if the dust or fumes are inhaled into the lungs: death can follow in a matter of days after a large dose into the body. It is overy expensve and in the 1940s it was also very rare. In Hansens’s definitive book _US Nuclear Weapons_, he says that the USA would have liked to to use more beryllium in its weapons prgramme, but its scarcityin the USA meant that not until 1946 was Los Alamos able to use beryllium on a large scale.

Genocide requires a deliberate attempt to annihilate a culture or it’s associated geneline through active, economic or diasporic expurgation

Meant that only commercial use was alloyed with copper for springs, bushes, etc. Even then usage was eventually restricted for toxicity reasons

We now have tow crusical questions. How was Germany able to have enough beryllium to be able to send 2.5 tons of it to Japan when, from Hansen’s book, it is clear that the USA, engaged on a massive nuclear weapons and reactor programme, had hardly any? Secondly, what did Japan want with this massive cargo of beryllium?
>>

_The Nuclear Axis_, Phillip Henshall, pgs. 51-56.

Dare I say that, short of holding an M.D. or related degree in biochemistry, reading me the riot act with Wiki at your back is not the best way to affirm your position?

The reddish jelly was made in a particle accelerator or more likely a plasma discharge capacitor. I would suggest that it is an isomer of Uranium, though whether that Uranium is Thorium derived U233 or U238 derived U235 is uncertain. It is mentioned as being very hot in some narratives and so could be either a process result of the rapid decay of U232 through Protoactinium to U233 or a charged up state of Uranium (the first Isomeric metastable forms of which had been discovered by Hahn, almost 24 years earlier). Either way, the fact is that it had an exceptionally short halflife of 19-21 days -unless- it was bonded to another stabilizing agent such as Beryllium.

The detonation at the Ohrdruf testrange complex is not mentioned in any detail in the books I have, beyond the shock that Hitler would allow himself be alone in the company of Army officers after Valkyrie or so far from Berlin with the war at such a critical moment. That and the size of container and it’s color and liquid form.

A later pair of test firings at the same location, sometime between March 4 and March 12, 1945, was attested to by Clare Werner and other period residents of the Ohrdruf region. Some of these witnesses describe what could be the use of a cryogen which implies a changed cross section experiment. Cross sectional changes means capture changes and that brings us back to Von Ardenne and his Lithium Deuteride experiments.

Von Ardenne was in the thick of it in more ways than one; having been involved in the creation of an ‘enhanced betatron’ for the Thor project which is now commonly known as Die Glocke` and was indeed all about converting Thorium to U233. His inventions including the Von Ardenne Device which, until digital MOSFETs, was one of the purest high voltage sources in existence. Stacks and stacks of these would be required for a PCD (aka tokamac) using 1940s techbase and he would have the expertise to tune their output to a gangfired pulsed power level necessary to fluoresce one compound into causing another to change it’s energy state.

If you are talking about creating such a ‘photochemical’ reaction (as was discussed at Farm Hall, once), you are talking about releasing something which fluoresces when bombarded with high level electric charge and mercury iodide is a good choice. If you start ‘flashing’ high energy gamma photons from polarized mercury adhering to magnetically charged walls, you can induce a Beryllium/Thorium mixture to trade neutrons which in turn can cause the Thorium to begin to transmute without RCR like would happen with Uranium.

This process is very hot and produces a huge amount gamma which accounts for the Cerenkov and the brine washdowns and the failed electricals. And the dead prison camp inmates.

Which are all part of the Bell Myth.

But it doesn’t explain why the Germans, who supposedly showed a lot of interest in this process, beginning in 1943, waited until August 1944 to evacuate several tons of refined TH232 from Belgium and in fact let one of the Auer employees get caught doing so.

Which, together with the need for a paraffin stabilizer and the short usage window, is what makes me think they are not going for fission into daughter elements at all but rather some form of state change within a Uranium compound already extant. An Isomeric one which needs only a further zap to cause it to cascade back down in a flood of gamma which induces fusion in the LD6 and again gives you the neutron release to trigger a fissile reaction.

Auer’s large and continuing efforts to refine the stockpile of base U238 into metallic forms and the continuing efforts to make plutonium out of it at Stadtilm all suggests this because Isomers are hard to create in stable high quantities and the gamma-makes-neutrons-makes-fusion-go-fission in a secondary of real radiofuel would explain this choice.

Obviously, this implies possible ‘outs’ for why the system was considered not ready for use as a combat weapon in WWII (running a betatron or PDC rheoator is not a subtle process suitable for guerilla industry) but I’ve known two people ‘who should know’ that say that Soviet nukes don’t work the way ours do and that the reason they are typically twice again as powerful as ours is not because of legacy accuracy issues with the MIRVs or bus but because the process to create the bang simply requires a higher yield state as fuel geometry arrangement to get the RCR.

Again, this doesn’t match up with U233 because while it is aggressive during the creation process, the final material is not any different in function from U235.

Von Ardenne was in the Soviet Union for a long time after the war. They didn’t give him a kupie doll and a ticket home instead a bullet to the neck and a Siberian grave for no reason. He did something extraordinary for them which proved his utility if not his loyalty to their cause and this was linked, not to fission but to fusion weapons.

That is likely where the unraveling of the lies and misdirections has to begin. In the Soviet archives as the early interrogations of the Nazi nuclear teams captured in the East by Frolov and others recruiting for the Soviet equivalent to Paperclip.

The Russians aren’t afraid of the truth, and why should they be? At a time when we had hundreds of nuclear weapons and avowed policy of annihilation, they had but a few dozen.

And they have never blown up civilians with them.

Genocide requires a deliberate attempt to annihilate a culture or it’s associated geneline through active, economic or diasporic extirpation. No murder of individuals on the level of that which the Japanese managed, even in China and Malaysia, would count for this.

If this is your way of telling me that you are Chinese and offended that I would retract the slaughter of Japanese because hurting them assuages your grief, I believe that you have just shown why it is that you are in no position to tell me anything about my sanity.

Japan lost between 2.6 and 3.1 million lives in WWII, the U.S. around 400,000. Of those Japanese deaths, one third or somewhere around 1 million were civilians whose slaughter amounts to a crime against humanity as certain as those of the Nazis.

Out of 71.8 million beginning the war, this is not a genocidal action but is a morally damning one that anyone would think the misery of the helpless was such a contribution to the war effort or conversely ‘so easy’ that it meant minimal risk to the Big Brave Americans is beneath contempt.

The Japanese were defeated in 1945. It was just a matter of time and pressure. We had no excuse or justification for murdering all those peole in the ‘dehousing’ incendiary campaigns. Especially when not one of those raids so much as touched the huge industrial conglomerate around Konan/Hungnam where the real Japanese effort to build a bomb, with German expertise as machines and materials, also may have born fruit.

Shrug.

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe, with the Germans conquered and all manner of documents as scientists ‘under review’, we had total insight to the campaign and like the Dresden bombing (site of another of Von Ardenne’s factory labs) ‘to save the village we had to burn to the ground.’

I would be willing to see that theory expounded as well.

But I am tired of seeing people look past the obvious: ‘Nuh Uhhh!’ Moments of a trade in nuclear technologies so rich it numbered in the tons of material _no one else had_ for a nuclear program _neither source country_ is said to have advanced to the point where REACTORS were not just a possibility but a certainty.

That the Allies certaintly knew his is evidenced by the extreme lengths which they went to shut down the UBoat trade in an effort so desperate that it risked the greatest secret of The War.

All the while chuckling about ‘how they had nothing after all’ like it was some great triumph that we burned a quarter million people in an unnecessary nuclear holocaust /after/ we knew the ‘big threat’ was a phantom menace.

But it’s not a joke. Because if there was no threat, then there was no need for Hiroshima and Nagasaki as setting the precedent for annihilation of civilians without cause or warning. And if we _knew that_ because we had sufficient insight into their nuclear trade to be blowing up cargo subs left and right, then we are nothing if not the heirs of mass murderers.

All this, while the world’s intellectual capacity continues to fade with high order literacy as the first order indicator of our regression to entropy and an utter lack of interest in how we got here as where we’re going next.

If you fail to live in the present, you have no future. If you fail to acnowledge the past, you are doomed to repeat it until you do.

And the truths of what happened in that era are fading to myth and legend while the lies that promuglated a false peace as an uneasy Cold War militarize industrial base have nearly ruined our society with the pursuit of cheap capitalism to make up for the lack of civilian innovation with slave labor.

Empowering the evil of Big Corporate to do what we were too busy to look after ourselves while fighting a war, is what may well prove to be the ultimate irony of the war as it looks, more and more, like the multinationals, operating through the various (BIS, Banco De Allemaine etc.) banks were what prolonged WWII to the point where using nuclear weapons was seen as a necessary means to win.

I look at today’s world and I see, more and more, that Hitler was right about the loss of nationality, as the predominance of genetic over commercial group interests, leading us down a very dark path. That on it’s own is a very scary thought, as we proceed to a condition where nothing is a constant, everything is for scaleable and where there is no redress possible for ultimate harm because there is also no way to hold accountable a global criminal enterprise for the wrong doings of local crimes whose closure society simply doesn’t want to hear.

Compare that to Hiroshima and Nagasaki and tell me that the attitudes of ‘whatever works, just get on with it’ didn’t begin there.

Deja Vu
Deja Vu
December 3, 2013 1:30 am

Is it too late to nominate the plug bayonette, forerunner to the socket bayonette, use of the bayonette rendered the musket useless.

Observer
Observer
December 3, 2013 3:06 am

“Dare I say that, short of holding an M.D. or related degree in biochemistry, reading me the riot act with Wiki at your back is not the best way to affirm your position?”

M&S, think you just shot yourself in the foot there. :) Thanks for the permission to read you the riot act, because amusingly, one of my major IS biochemistry.

As for the Japanese, your major error is to persist in seeing them as copies of American or European civilians, they are not. Their mindset is such that they believe that they are under the direct rule of a living God, the Emperor Hirohito, descendent of Amaterasu, the Sun God. You think Islamist Fundamentalists are bad? They’re beginners compared to WWII Japanese. Not even the Islamists commit hari-kiri over losing, and Islam theorises the existence of Allah, the Japanese have direct evidence of the presence of their God, which just makes them even more fervent.

There have been eyewitness accounts of sailors choosing to drown themselves rather than be rescued by “Americans”, and you think putting boots on the ground of people with that mindset is a valid lifesaving tactic? You would have to kill at least half the people living in the country just to put them down, which according to the 1945 census, is 71 MILLION total population. Even if arms take up rate is only 10% (highly unlikely considering their nationalistic and religious fervour) that is about 7 million soldiers. Go put your army into that. You’ll lose men feeding them into a meatgrinder. Even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the common Japanese was STILL willing to fight, it was only by the direct personal intervention of the Emperor himself that convinced them to stop, their version of “God speaking from the heavens directly to you”. The first time most common Japanese had even HEARD of their Emperor/Incarnate Deity’s voice. Go look up “Gyokuon-hōsō”, that is the broadcast reading the Japanese “surrender”. It was such a change in worldview that the name does not refer to the surrender document, but the event of the broadcast itself. He could be singing “Mary had a little lamb” and it would still be a major event to them. And note one thing about the “Rescript of the Termination of the War”. They never said they surrendered, only that they accepted the Portsdam Declaration. Still had lots of fight in them.

Japanese, especially in WWII, are not imitation Americans or Europeans, it would be a major mistake if you keep thinking of them that way.

Chris Werb
Chris Werb
December 3, 2013 3:40 am

M&S, one of my guilty secrets is that I actually possess a copy of this book. :)

http://www.amazon.com/HITLERS-MIRACLE-WEAPONS-Luftwaffe-Kriegsmarine/dp/1874622914/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1386041883&sr=8-2-fkmr1&keywords=hitler%27s+secret+nuclear+arsenal

The author may be completely barking, but it’s very well written and illustrated with the use of quite a few exquisite models*.

*As in scale models – not the sort that wear pearl necklaces! :p

a
a
December 3, 2013 5:43 pm

At Ohrdruf Hitler saw a demonstration of a weapon whose principle component was a purplish-red metallic liquid which, when detonated, created a 600m wide crater

This is true. My grandfather was in SOE during the war and he saw this happen. He was some distance off, concealed inside a casemate made from an old post box – fortunately it had smoked glass covering the slit where the letters go in.

John Hartley
John Hartley
December 3, 2013 7:30 pm

In Nick Cooks book “The Hunt for Zero Point” there is a bit about the trial in Polish courts of SS General Jakob Sporrenberg. He was an administrator rather than a fighter. It was his job to find the transport & resources for these secret German wonder weapons. He divulged what he saw (the NKVD were persuasive), but he was not a scientist. The experiment was at the Wenceslas mine , Ludwigsdorf, Poland. A bell shaped object made of hard heavy metal. Filled with a Mercury type substance “Xerum525”. Thorium & Beryllium Peroxide were also used. Each test lasted a minute. The bell emitted a pale blue glow. Any electrical equipment within 200 m would short circuit or break down. Any plants placed next to it would turn white as their chlorophyll was destroyed. A crystalline substance formed within animal tissue destroying them from the inside. With the Russians nearby, 60 of the German scientists were shot by the SS to stop the Russians getting the knowledge. Whether any of this is credible, or the rantings of a tortured man trying to save his neck, who knows?

KRT
KRT
December 6, 2013 3:33 pm

M&S please stop posting such walls of text. Much of it is not well researched.
It is well known that all powers in WWII were anxious lest one strikes the other with a wunderwaffe.
The only effective strikes with such a weapon were done by the Americans against Japan via nuclear weapons and to some degree by the Japanese against China with biological weapons. German wunderwaffen were rather gimmicks, which had not developed their potential, due to the everlasting targeting problem Germany had against the UK.
That Japan, like Italy, and all other powers had a long wishlist to enhance their nuclear research is clear, but it’s foremost a simple wishlist in order to fulfill another wish. There is no indication that the Axis Powers were on an effective nuclear program nearing completion, despite them having some good research results in certain fields. Japan lacked industry and Italy lacked money, having spent much long before the war on system now outdated, and Germany was ridden by an ideology, that was counterproductive in many fields. Despite their ideology, the Germans did have a number of achievements. None was as decisive as the Haber-Bosch process during the former world war that was to be credited in part to a German nationalistic Jew. These formed a part of Germany’s foremost scientists that was missing from the war effort under the Nazis and their contributions were not taken up. This effectively cut Germany of from much of modern quantum physics by introducing Aryan physics with a more Newtonian, outdated, outlook. You have to ask whether within the model of Aryan physics someone was nearing completion of any useful nuclear device.

M&S
M&S
December 6, 2013 6:52 pm
Reply to  KRT

KRT,

” M&S please stop posting such walls of text. Much of it is not well researched.”

Compared to yours? I laugh.

“It is well known that all powers in WWII were anxious lest one strikes the other with a wunderwaffe.”

Which only tells you how stupid our warfighting strategy was because nobody who knows anything about anything invades Europe through Italy. You walk up one mountain range only to end at an even higher one. OTOH, everyone knew about Kursk and contrary to the British effort at Dieppe, we also knew how to have an Amphibious Landing and _mean it_.

Since nothing done in the Pacific in 1943 meant anything to the outcome of the war but a sudden quick march to Germany with air support from four carriers could have taken them before they could and indeed _did_ invent atomic weapons, the matter becomes one of how many millions do you want to put at extended risk?

To which I will add that every electrical rectification facility as massive turbodynes with 20-25 ton copper windings. These are essentially irreplaceable on a wartime basis and without electricity, a warfighter industry collapses as it’s labor force collapses. Follow the high tension lines, blow the generator halls, the war ends in weeks not years.

We _wanted_ that war to be as long and costly as possible because the path to NWO demanded that Old Europe no longer be a player on the Superpower stage.

Keeping in mind that Germany had hundreds of tons of nerve agents which made anything short of MOPP-3 gas protection problematic and the longer you leave someone to get desperate, the more unstable their reactions tend to become, if we ‘were worried’ about the Germans having a functional nuclear program (and the Fish Code traffic would have confirmed this as German used radioteletypes throughout the war, even on traffic that should have been courier-only) and we did nothing to forestall the annihilation of the occupieds as much as the Reich proper, we are twice over morally damned.

“The only effective strikes with such a weapon were done by the Americans against Japan via nuclear weapons and to some degree by the Japanese against China with biological weapons.”

Because the Americans couldn’t separate Uranium to save their souls and the Germans, who didn’t have 180,000 men to waste on the ye olde fashioned way became innovators instead. It being German uranium that made Little Boy in particular possible.

Our approach to atomic engineering was to know ‘all the reasons’ for the reaction. The intelligent approach to atomic weaponeering is to develop the industrial methods to produce the requisite sub components and then start testing until something blows up. The Germans, despite ULTRA compromise which blew their factories and development labs out from underneath them at an incredible rate, won the race.

We chose to slog through Italy on the basis of Winston Churchill’s advice.

“German wunderwaffen were rather gimmicks, which had not developed their potential, due to the everlasting targeting problem Germany had against the UK.”

German wunderwaffen with atomic warheads, even /atomic waste/ warheads, change the course of the war.

The Americans don’t care because the U.S. has a 3,000nm water barrier on one side and a 6,000nm one on the other. The British should have been wiser. But they were led by Churchill.

“That Japan, like Italy, and all other powers had a long wishlist to enhance their nuclear research is clear, but it’s foremost a simple wishlist in order to fulfill another wish.”

If that was all it was, The Allied Myth, perpetuated to this day, would not begin with: “And outside of Hagerloch there was nothing.” When in fact the very manifests from the subs which we captured as well as the huge number which we risked all our covert knowledge to sink, points the exact opposite direction: towards incredible fear of a nascent threat that could make it impossible to end the war in Europe or invade Japan.

There is no doubt that a monstrous lie has been perpetuated against the world. The question becomes why and specifically /why now/ when so many of the capabilities needed to make bombs are irretrievably lost to proliferation via the CIA boondoggle with AQ Khan and The Tinners.

It is as though we -want- a nuclear armed terrorist condition.

And have had since Eisenhower made the basics of atomic energy public knowledge in the 1950s.

But we cannot admit that there is more to the German atomic research than Groves and so many others have lied about? Please.

“There is no indication that the Axis Powers were on an effective nuclear program nearing completion, despite them having some good research results in certain fields.”

Not because you say so. Find a reason for there to huge amounts of nuclear systems equipment well beyond the SOA indicated at Hagerloch where a reaction would have been contained by hand poured barrels of Boric Acid. And find it for the Japanese as well. Because if you don’t, you are just a part of the problem. A problem which says: “2.5 tons of Beryllium, 10,000 diamond dies and 2,000 Kernehaspe don’t mean nothin'”

“Japan lacked industry and Italy lacked money, having spent much long before the war on system now outdated, and Germany was ridden by an ideology, that was counterproductive in many fields.”

Deutsche Physik aside, the proof lies in the materials which are only relevant if both Japan and Germany in fact had functional _reactor programs_ underway.

“Despite their ideology, the Germans did have a number of achievements. None was as decisive as the Haber-Bosch process during the former world war that was to be credited in part to a German nationalistic Jew. These formed a part of Germany’s foremost scientists that was missing from the war effort under the Nazis and their contributions were not taken up. This effectively cut Germany of from much of modern quantum physics by introducing Aryan physics with a more Newtonian, outdated, outlook. You have to ask whether within the model of Aryan physics someone was nearing completion of any useful nuclear device.”

I have to argue no such thing. You are the one inserting Jewish vs. German rhetoric here.

I have only to prove that, through shame or envy the West has denied the existence of a massive German effort to create atomic bombs and the proof of this prevarication lies in the materials held in the shipping manifests, the extreme risks to the Ultra Secret that we went to in prosecuting Cargo U-Boats and the total coverup of the likely test detonation sites with ‘scientific results’ which leave out the radio dates of the two key elements which Chernobyl did not produce but which every atomic blast does.

Until and unless the inheritors of the Allied Myth stop lying about what they themselves have allowed to be in the public domain as nuclearly materials lists corresponding with an advanced reactor program, and start explaining things like Patton’s mad dash to Czechoslovakia, the disappearance of Kammler without pursuit or legal prosecution and the coverup of the Ohdruf test site investigations, we are in a position where there can be no doubt but that the Allied atomic effort was both immoral, and unnecessary because they would not do what was necessary to end the war in 1943-44 and instead waited to do what the Germans, who had the means an a driving need, refused to:

‘Test’ atomic bombs on civilian targets with the express intent of creating mazcats.

All without cause in the PTO. And with pressing urgency in ETO.

Shrug. One cannot enlighten stupid. It knows what it knows. And at the moment, that definition applies to the majority of the planet as they now stand, caught in the manipulative spider web of Allied Mythology as false righteousness.

dave haine
dave haine
December 6, 2013 7:52 pm

Excellent! A fact-filled wonderbook from St Mike…again…

Can’t wait to hear what other bits of history he’s going to revise for us, next.

JC
JC
December 6, 2013 7:59 pm

In my experience a rampant NWO-conspiracy theorist makes your average pub bore seem like good company.

WiseApe
December 6, 2013 8:46 pm

I have to put up with one of these NWO conspiracy types at work. Now one has invaded my refuge. I feel violated. I’m off to the offie for some ‘Hen. Cheers all.

dave haine
dave haine
December 6, 2013 8:55 pm

@ WiseApe

Of the old, speckled variety?

John Hartley
John Hartley
December 6, 2013 9:12 pm

If you don’t want to go into the black tech world, how about a MoD bargain hunt unit. Able to move quickly to cheaply purchase any near new 2nd hand bargains other Countries are getting rid of?

Red Trousers
Red Trousers
December 6, 2013 11:42 pm

Is there anyone else on TD who sees a wall of text and just scrolls right through it without reading?

All Politicians are the Same
All Politicians are the Same
December 6, 2013 11:49 pm

@RT

Depends up[on who has posted it. If they have the decency to have paragraphs I generally read the first one and take it from there. some long postd in reply to numerous other points are interesting. Others are not.

Observer
Observer
December 7, 2013 5:33 am

And some are raving bonkers.

And yes, like APATs said, it would depend on the poster. If the person has a history of good insight, like Chuck, for example, my gut feeling is that it is probably worth wading through the length for the most probably gems of insight it contains. Others who have a history of rants, most likely not, so I’ll skip.

WiseApe
December 7, 2013 10:44 am

@dave haine – Yes indeed. Turns out you really can have too much of a good thing. :-( And then there’s the cricket….

dave haine
dave haine
December 7, 2013 4:13 pm

@ WiseApe
Deceptive isn’t it, pleasant, moreish, easy-drinking…then…

Yep, can see it now….banging headache, and a f**king awful innings…