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    • chris on What Next after Landroverx - the Army needs Tin Snail pick-ups! Can you imagine one laden with soldiers trying to look tough and scary making its way as fast as it could (25mph?) towards the enemy? Wars would collapse without a shot being fired for helpless laughter... The designer (not founder/owner) of Africar also designed the HMT for Supacat (and the ATMP if memory is right) - pretty nifty with suspension designs and unconventional ideas. Worth noting here as mentioned before the choice of watercooled Citroen GS engine was not ideal - it was to be replaced with a more suitable lump later...
    • The Other Chris on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftAgree with NaB. No idea why we're aspiring to the strike capability of Angola.
    • The Other Chris on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?Have a look at Palestine Police history. Although not the specific area you're discussing there is a wealth of Information on maintaining the neighbouring region.
    • Jeremy M H on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftHonestly I think that the idea of a dedicated CAS aircraft of a lower tier, light attack aircraft (ala the A-4 or Alpha Jet) are pretty much gone. That niche simply doesn't exist anymore. In the environments in which such aircraft could fly and be effective you might as well just make use of drones which as many have pointed out are more persistent and cheaper. You can supplement this by weaponizing larger aircraft that may already be there doing other jobs as well. And as others (Mark in particular) have pointed out you don't fly in even a medium...
    • Gloomy Northern Boy on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?@Observer - As far as I know, the serious military confrontation was 1919/20...however matters never really settled down throughout the inter-war period and there were more fun and games in WW2 (including Britain's first serious although small scale war with Iraq, who had invited the Germans in). I don't think there were military confrontations post-war, although there was trouble between Kuwait and Iraq and between the House of Al Saud and Yemen (backed by Egypt). Wouldn't be at all surprised if settlements were not brokered until the 1950s/60s, and if there was sporadic tribal fighting (there quite possibly still is,...
    • Observer on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?Gloomy, then the war between Kuwait and Saudi Arabia was a lot more recent was it? Think the claims and the fighting, the partition zone and the embargos were not sorted out until 1955?
    • Not a BOffin on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftPlease God make it stop. It's worse than this.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC4gfJvEdGQ
    • IXION on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?Chris B Wish I had known you at the time ..... would have put hell of a bet on with you.
    • Gloomy Northern Boy on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?@Observer - Last decade of the Nineteenth Century, during the dynastic wars between the Al-Saud and Al-Rashid, the echoes of which had continuing resonance for the following forty years until modern Saudi Arabia was firmly established in 1933 (?). It's some time since I read it, but I think T E Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom covers the background (either that or I found something that did when I was reading it, because I didn't know what the hell was going on!). I have in my library a pre-publication edition of said same, privately printed in London. :-) More generally,...
    • Observer on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?ACC, I really didn't see anything about that, only the Kuwait-Najd war, the neutral partition zone and the embargo. Any references to go to? And a timeframe?
    • ArmChairCivvy on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?@APATS, That's the way I like it (VFM? And nothing wasted) http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/07/td-archives-people-like-a400m/comment-page-1/#comment-300704
    • Mark on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftDeleting Fuel tanks would be an option hawk is pretty short legged clean it will have a impact. Essentially in that photo you have 9 stores carried not to mention the onboard requirements you can't see, to fit them on hawk or the like leave half of them off but as a starter for ten 2 of the 3 pods under the aircraft are pretty mandatory and I doubt youll see anything up without fuel tanks.
    • ArmChairCivvy on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?Observer, just the small thing that when the al Saud were (temporarily) beaten, the ruling Kuwaitis gave them refuge. The former then went on to conquer their country back ... Then, with gross simplification, the same happened in reverse (the Kuwaitis did not conquer their country back themselves but it was their country, whereas the"their" when I first used it above should have been in brackets. Many good books about it. The bottom line is that the al Saud owed them big time, paid back (with a lot of backlash against them inside the country)... And that is the exact...
    • Opinion3 on Are we the only people that like the A400M?The A400M looks pretty darn good now. The FSTA deal still looks poor and I remain to be convinced that the Voyagers specification is right. I can just about cope without the loading door, but the lack of UARRSI and the ARBS is bonkers. With the lack of capability to refuel the C17s ourselves, and the lack of the ability to refuel the Voyagers, it is nice to think that should the needs arise we can put the A400M on the task of air to air refueling daisy-chaining like in 1982. I like options, the A400M, with contra-rotating propellers, modern...
    • Topman on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS Aircraft@Simon You need to add extra equipment onto the basic fit of various trainers mooted that is inescapable. The amount added will be debated but it will have a knock on, on performance that is a given.
    • TED on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS Aircraftohh hadnt heard of scorpion before looks very nice. How about 100 sqn equipped with them?
    • Simon on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftMark, I'd leave off around 5 tonnes of airframe and engine ;-) That would mean David Niven could exclude the external tanks 'cos they wouldn't be needed either. Perhaps we should leave the ejection seat, life support and pilot out too?
    • DavidNiven on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS Aircraft@Mark, The fuel tanks? ;-)
    • Chris on Open Thread – July 2014Frenchie - obviously I agree that a set of sub-20t armoured vehicles would be a useful addition to UK's Army vehicle fleet. Jackal is perhaps one of the strangest ideas; to take an unarmoured high mobility MG platform and armour it but only half way up leaving the top open is just weird; maybe justifiable in IED threat areas but against an organised military opponent the lack of armour over the personnel just doesn't look adequate. Anyway - your English is good enough for us to understand so there's no problem - just imagine how bad our French would be?...
    • Mark on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftI repeat the question A theatre entry standard harrier in afghan see pic below. http://www.flyer.co.uk/images/Harrier%201.jpg Now given you need something the size and weight of harrier with the power requirements of a Pegasus to meet uk standards what are we leaving off to squeeze all this onto a hawk or a Tucano?
    • Simon on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftThe problem with using turboprops/trainers is that they look appealing; cheap, capable and simple to operate. However when you start to load them up in the real world with the kit needed it creates a large performance penalty No the problem is scope creep from a simple aircraft to something with DAS, a AESA radar and every weapon system imaginable. On a slightly different note I thought I 'd simply say that CAS stands for Close Air Support. This was support required by ground troops to do their job. Perhaps things have simply swapped round and the RAF needs to...
    • All Politicians are the Same on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?@TOC Damn, last line should read "individually more capable"
    • DavidNiven on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS Aircraft@Topman Will we not save money in the fact that they will not require to progress onto Hawk (if we are using a prop airframe) and then OCU on a given FJ airframe? Plus they will not need to do air to air (once the Tonka's retire) as well as ground attack training in an expensive to run FJ. Would you still get recruits into the RAF as FJ pilots if they were doing CAS in prop aircraft for a couple of year stints at a time?
    • Red Trousers on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS Aircraft@All, don't forget that CAS is close support, whereas Battlefield Air Interdiction (BAI) is done beyond the Fire Support and Coordination Line (FSCL). What most of you are talking about is BAI, which no one in the Army worries about at all, as it doesn't involve them. Shorthand: a few brave Kevins dropping bombs about 50 clicks away. Nothing to do with us. CAS is however hugely important to the Army, as we are on the receiving end if it does not go well, hugely interested. Which is why we would rather that the Kevins had no role at all...
    • John Hartley on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftOn the A-10 issue, I know a lot of people like it, but its getting old & the original manufacturer has long since gone. Thinking about US budget woes, I cannot see the USAF getting 1763 F-35A. If I was them, I would cut that number to 1400, scrap the A-10s, use that money to develop & buy 200-250 long range F-35E & have money spare for 200-250 Textron Airland Scorpions to take on the CAS role.
    • The Other Chris on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftBiggest weakness of the C295 are it's legs. Endurance at range is far below what the UK normally expects and by factors.
    • All Politicians are the Same on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?@ Thread The simple fact and it is a fact is that we have utilised our Military airlift to virtually its capacity and beyond (having to charter FI air bridge, press Royal flight BAE 146 jets into action in ME troop role etc) over the last 20 years and we will no doubt fully utilise our A400M Fleet which gives us a different set of variables being fewer in number but individually less capable. End of :)
    • Topman on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS Aircraft@DN Basic rotary training won't really equip anyone to do CAS they will need to do some extra training. The training costs would be the same I would think.
    • Jules on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftTransport: http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamilies/military-aircraft/c-295/ Gunship: http://defensetech.org/2011/10/19/atks-light-gunship-package/ MPA: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/riat-airbus-military-steps-up-c295-mpa-offer-to-uk-388594/ New engines and extended range: http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30702:airbus-military-launches-new-c295-variant&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107 I'm leaving out AEW etc because it's not what we want, even so it's a bean-counters orgasm! I'd love the ro-ro kit for MPA to be useable on the A400 as well. Affording them at 28mil a shot and all the kit and Mods to make em useful on top, that is another thing... How much a piece, I wonder but it is a lot of utility form one airframe, still we can't afford them. The Tucano's are going as are the old Hawks eventually, so if we...
    • John Hartley on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftWell on another thread, I floated the idea of a ground attack Hawk with Paveway IV, Brimstone, ASRAAM & an EO/targeting pod, so I will give it another airing here. If you want something "go faster", but not as expensive as a Typhoon/F-18/F-35/Rafale, how about the Korean FA-50? The combat version of the T-50 advanced trainer. I quite fancy the Defender as a poor mans MPA. If we can only afford a few high end P-8 Poseidons, then I would make the numbers up with MPA equipped Defenders.
    • x on What Next after LandroverPosted this before here, http://www.citroenet.org.uk/foreign/slough/rn-pickup/pick-up.html and compare to, http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2013/05/images/640_africar.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africar and then, http://www.michtrucks.com/Mattrack%20mini%20truck.jpg
    • S O on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?"In the end the French ended up leaning heavily on its allies, including ourselves." I don't recall them mobilizing Air France or improvising very much. Look, all these military adventures are done with the left hand small finger these days. Nobody really mobilizes the power of both fists any more, because these adventures are understood to not be worth it. To buy and operate dozens of gold plated milspec cargo aircraft just in case is merely the equivalne tof buying a gold ring and wear it at all times; luxury of little to no use. "to stop Libyan forces before...
    • DavidNiven on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS Aircraft@Topman The AAC only get elementary flying training, and then move onto basic rotary wing training, therefore you get the savings in training. You could keep them in the light blue but would you get anyone just wanting to fly prop CAS or would you use some rotary pilots? There might be some savings in ground crew and maintainers as well.
    • DavidNiven on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS Aircraft'The aircraft your looking for has already been invented 2 man crew max speed 288 mph range 1,382 miles ceiling 30,000 foot 5 hard points rated up to 500lb bombs, and a mix of sidewinder, rockets and machine guns. AND it can take off and land on the QE class carriers' I thought the Gripen was faster with less range and the Sea Gripen is just on paper ;-)
    • Topman on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftThe problem with using turboprops/trainers is that they look appealing; cheap, capable and simple to operate. However when you start to load them up in the real world with the kit needed it creates a large performance penalty. We have recently and are likely to have few airbases and covering a large area, you'll notice the time to arrive and start dropping bombs. In a 'home' environment I can see the attraction of them if it's an environment that suits. When you are in areas that you don't get to pick they are drawbacks. @ DN 'CAS aircraft then it...
    • Jim on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftThe aircraft your looking for has already been invented; 2 man crew max speed 288 mph range 1,382 miles ceiling 30,000 foot 5 hard points rated up to 500lb bombs, and a mix of sidewinder, rockets and machine guns. AND it can take off and land on the QE class carriers unfortunately it was retired in 1995, but there are probably some stored in that Arizona desert. Its the OV-10 Bronco.
    • Observer on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?ACC, only saw your post after mine went up. Is there a link between the Al-Sabah dynasty and the family of Ibn Saud? The only one I can find is that Saud claimed Kuwait in the Kuwait-Najd war and had nothing to do with dynastic disputes.
    • Frenchie on Open Thread – July 2014@DavidNiven, Thank you ;) I would really like that you owned a fleet of small vehicles of 20 tonnes for your "Adaptable force," not necessarily French, I don't speak for the interests of my country, but for the British Army and for the defence of the United Kingdom. It would be more coherent to have a fleet of vehicles for high intensity battles, and a fleet of vehicles for the low intensity battles. But this is a matter of money and on your side, like ours, we don't have a lot. Vehicles such as the Jackal are used in France...
    • Ted on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftOkay so what about 100 sqn with gripen? I'm sure they 'd be delighted
    • IXION on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftFor all 'the A 10 is overrated' stuff I agree perhaps in its pure operational doctrine it was flawed. However remember hearing quote on radio from British officer about air support in afghan.7 Along the lines of: ' If the pilot answered with an Italian accent he would miss the target. If he had a French accent he just wouldn't show up. If he had an English accent his harrier would show up drop a few bombs on target and then have to go. If he had an American accent the whole unit cheered up! As an a 10 would...
    • Observer on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?Off course now, back to the airlift debate, SO is right in that the majority of any military airlift is civilian that part is not in question, it's in the records. He is also right in that in any serious conflict, the whole of British Airways can be nationalized, but to sustain ops out of purely military airlift is massively difficult, pure military aircraft do not have the numbers, not even the US, especially with the weight cap. I disagree that it is impossible, but rather very, very difficult. Your force must be structured for it, your enemy opposition must...
    • ArmChairCivvy on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?@Observer, As it doesn't really bear on the headline of this thread, suffice to say: you need to do some reading on the history between the House of Saud and the ruling family in Kuwait
    • Chris on Open Thread – July 2014x - you know the form - there is but one question to be answered when someone introduces a new type of helicopter to the thread, so... How many Brimstone does it carry?
    • ArmChairCivvy on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftSaab and Boeing are teaming up to provide a brand new a/c as a T38 replacement ,.. Yeah, sure! It is going to be a toned-down Gripen So-oo, rather than" replace the Typhoon tranche 1 with Gripen" replace all hawks with that"Gripen"? - get some CAS on the deal?
    • Observer on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?Chris.B, you are assuming that just because you could not see the writing on the wall, others could not too. The instant Desert Shield was implemented, the Iraqi forces were doomed. I saw it even before the first Scud was popped off, I suspect Ixion did too and probably SO. That you couldn't is a bit worrying. Iraq going after the Saudis was a case of desperation, and they really were not serious about it as well. There is more bad blood between them and the Iranians than them with the Saudis. In fact, relations between Saudi Arabia and Kuwait...
    • Chris.B. on From the TD Archives – Are we the only people that like the A400M?@ SO, "Mali was done by the French, not the UK" -- And was a perfect example (hence its inclusion) of what happens when you lack sufficient heavy air lift assets to respond to a rapidly evolving crisis. In the end the French ended up leaning heavily on its allies, including ourselves. And what where they crying out for? Military air lift. The scenario itself, rushing forces in to support a friendly nation against a threat, is precisely the sort of thing (among others) that a lot of the UK defence projections anticipate our forces doing. "The intervention over Libya...
    • ArmChairCivvy on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS AircraftWhat a great thread to have: Fire for Effect: Field Artillery and Close Air Support - food for thought; will have to look at the freebie source, with better time
    • Engineer Tom on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS Aircraft@ Simon, This is why I like the idea of a Britten-Norman Defender carrying more weapons possibly in a bomb bay. We already fly them in war zones and they can carry weapons but I believe we use them only for ISR. @ Ted Hawk can't carry enough weapons, two A2G missiles I believe plus two sidewinders.
    • DavidNiven on From the TD Archives – Low Cost CAS Aircraft'We do tend to forget in the hi lo debate that someone has to drive the thing into harms way.' Fast jet training is the most expensive type of training. It costs some £3.8 million to train a fast jet pilot prior to operational training, with a further £1.9 million for the cost of an operational training course. (NAO 2012) If we are going to move to a prop CAS aircraft then it will need to be moved to the AAC to make the most of the cost savings. Either that or replace the Typhoon tranche 1 with Gripen, and...