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  • Not a Boffin on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesI don't disagree and it gives me no pleasure at all to see some of my worst fears realised. One day when the dust has settled, it will be interesting to do a little estimate of how much money was actually nugatory work caused by indecision - or by doing...
  • Think Defence on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesNaB, I added in the recent Mk45 Mod 4 contract, and fair play on the Treasury having a hand We are about £1.7 odd billion plus the Batch II River, and who knows what will happen to the SDSR 2015 commitment for another pair of Rivers. Lets just assume they...
  • Not a Boffin on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesHang on TD - you've just added another £200M to your own figures! You're also failing to mention the fourth partner in this tale of woe - the denizens of No 11, who it has to be said are far from blameless in the "failure" to bring in the project....
  • Paul Padley on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesDon't suppose anyone knows what design Babcock has submitted, a lengthened Samuel Becket with a heli deck and a hanger perhaps?
  • pacman27 on Type 31 Frigate Capabilities@NAB - accepted. Common hulls may not be a panacea - but I am a big believer in commonality as it can be a real game changer if applied properly. The key question for me is where does all the money go then if not into the actual building of...
  • Think Defence on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesThe simple fact is the MoD has spent £1.7 billion to date on a replacement for Type 23/22 with not a single ship in the water or a mature design. Yes, we have some equipment for the first three T26 and a couple of test facilities but we also have...
  • Not a Boffin on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesDoesn't work quite like that, but close enough for the purposes of this debate. Which is why single customer yards - particularly when the customer is averse to making decisions and hamstrung by his treasurer - are rarely a good idea.
  • Shades on Type 31 Frigate Capabilities@NAB, correct me if I'm wrong but I think you've said before that one of the main cost issues with the T26 build is for the man hours on the Clyde. If I'm understanding correctly, as the MoD is the Clyde's only customer and the T26 is the only ship...
  • The Other Nick on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesMy understanding as why you need a quiet hull for effective ASW with a T31. With any sonar the R&D aimed at improving the array signal-to-noise ratio and noise reduction for signal enhancement. With a towed array the longer the array the more you can improve resolution and to reject...
  • Shades on Type 31 Frigate Capabilities@shark bait, yes on that basis 3 ASW ships starts to look inadequate, let alone the 2.5 T26 that are currently on the cards! If it's too late to make the T26 slightly less amazing, I agree a respectable (if not top tier) ASW capability for T31 would surely be...
  • JohnHartley on Conflict Prevention from AboveNot sure where to put this but, defensenews is reporting that the fifth RAF Sentinel will be kept this financial year, while long term plans are decided.
  • Not a Boffin on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesPacman. Your "design" figures are gash. Of the £1.5Bn, a very substantial amount is large equipment items for the first three ships. Then there's some shore-based test facilities and a few other things that don't constitute "design" activity. I'd be very surprised if the "hull" design activity cost more than...
  • shark bait on Type 31 Frigate Capabilities@Shades, I agree with that logic. I does seem that we need 3 ships to cover those tasks, but what about FRE and TAPS? and then how to we cover then with only 2.5 available T26? another capability gap? I think it is clearly too late to change. The T26...
  • Not a Boffin on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesT22/23(R), FE, FSC, C1 and now T26 always had to be "sold" as more than ASW ships. Not least because in the minds of many in MB, the submarine threat had "gone away". No-one was ever in the business of selling global cruisers and no-one sensible applies the term to...
  • shark bait on Type 31 Frigate Capabilities@dmereifield that does sound reasonable to me. A very basic patrol frigate a heart, with just CAMM and some deck launched missiles, but equipped with one specialist bit of kit at the back to enable it to escort. I don't think we could ever expect the T31 to have AAW...
  • pacman27 on Type 31 Frigate Capabilities@Repulse I agree with your analysis that we should build as many hulls as possible of T26 over the next 10 years and then switch to a smaller vessel or continue building more if they are deemed successful. As with the Absolon and Huitfeldt's we can fill in the gaps...
  • shark bait on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesASW should be part of the T31. If it cant deter subs, it cant escort. If it cant escort, what is the point of it existing?
  • shark bait on Type 31 Frigate Capabilities@ Mark, of those submarine operators, 11 are with NATO, 10 are dependable allies and 18 could swing either way in a conflict. The threat is real and it is growing. It wont take much for some SSK's to restrict the freedom of movment of the Royal Navy, stopping them...
  • Repulse on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesThe problem was in my view to sell the T26 in light of the "peace dividend" and uncertainty around the CVFs, it had to be more than just a ASW ship and became the "Global Cruiser". Whilst a smaller ASW class may now look attractive, I think most of the...
  • Shades on Type 31 Frigate Capabilitiesit seems that we have a fundamental need for at least 3 ASW ships on operations at any time - one for trident and two to protect a carrier task group. I agree with some other posters (most recently MSR and Don) that T26 seems way over-qualified for this role....
  • Don on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesThe Type 31 should be ASW specialist with CAMM that's what RN need . ASuW missiles are not needed. These can be delivered by Wildcat or F35 without putting ship or crew in danger. Why get into an ASuw missile fight if you have aircraft . However as this is...
  • Challenger on Type 31 Frigate CapabilitiesThe Japanese seem to do the whole multiple but small classes of surface vessels with common equipment thing well, albeit on a much larger scale.
  • Day 270 – old and new | 366daystolearn on Introducing 77 Brigade and a New Way Of Business[…] at the same time as the new Army Doctrine Note 15/01 “Integrated Action” was published (source). According to an article in the […]
  • pacman27 on Type 31 Frigate Capabilities@MSR I do not agree that smaller classes are the way to go, as I think there is a middle way which is to standardise on a single type of hull (ie: Small frigate of a meko A200 style) and then refine or alter every 10 years. The problem about...
  • 40 deg south on Type 31 Frigate Capabilitieshttp://adbr.com.au/bae-systems-ramps-up-quest-for-sea-5000/ BAE's man in Australia gamely argues that having the design not finished is actually a good thing for Australia. At least I think that's what he is saying. Julian made a similar comment somewhere upstream in this thread. In any case, BAE seem to think they are still a...

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