A urgent question in the House of Commons today at 12.30, likely increases in deployments and an offer of one of the Point Class RORO ships (yes, those that were reduced from 6 to 4 last year)
Image blatantly blagged from Skiplicker 
Watch on Parliament TV at 12.30 (ish)
At least the snow has gone. Just opened up the aviary sides to change the air; the birds are having a good “view” as we say. We are going to have fish fingers for tea. Yum. Mali? Well…..
So they’re going to be stationed in Bamako. Which is far from the frontlines. Not exactly going in like the Foreign Legion into Timbuktu!
On the other hand, John Reid said in 2006 that the mission to Helmand would be accomplished without a single shot fired. (odd how that hasn’t been referenced in the media, relevant prior example)
S**t I did not realise we got rid of two points last year as well. Do we still have four in actual service? Maybe David Cameron should just make a speech and tell the world he if full of shit
So if they sold off all of the ships, the RN would be “Pointless”?
Just teasing. Not too worried though, all this equipment dumping is an artifact from the economic crisis. When that blows over, I would expect some regeneration of equipment.
I wish our amphibs were as fast as the Points.
Steve C
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4935532.stm
lol
“UK troops to target terrorists”
So… what have they been shooting at all this time? Well armed civilians?
Now we are sending 350 guys thought it was just a few tens this morning. Is there no one else other than us that can get involved.
You know, if we offer to send some Typhoons, the French will probably stop asking for our help.
I photographed the RoRo ferries at SMC Marchwood some little time ago, very impressive they are too. Just a thought, won’t the ferries need guarding with the Fleet Protection people? And won’t the ferry terminal need guarding (with yet more people). And won’t the guards need guarding?
@ defence photo
We swallowed a spider to catch a fly. I don’t know why we can’t just send George Osbourne. Surely our most deadly weapon. Able To piss £600 million quid up the wall in a single day to save his constituants a we bit of building work but unable to keep even the Point Clas in Service.
Does anyone know why we are going into Mali?Whats so different about it to Somalia or Yemen or anyone of a dozen shit holes apparently run by the buggy man of al queda. Can anyone say mission creep. Do the French not feel they have this covered? They seem to be moving pretty fast on the ground. Or is the real motive to give the DFID something to do post 2015.
I think we’re mainly going out there to hurry along the English-speaking neighbours. African troops have been promised, but they evidently need someone to straighten their berets and double them away in the right direction.
I thought that 2 of the 6 Points were on Charter and could be pulled in in an emergency?
Isn’t all this a bit more of the european willy-waving we saw in libya, and us trying to convince ourselves we and the french can handle defence needs together whilst continuing to cut budgets, manpower and assets? already i’ve read 5 US C-17s are involved, plus a Canadian one, plus i think possibly norway and denmark? can’t we just say, unless an existential threat appears to the uk, we’re going to take 5 years off, reset / re-equip, take a deep breath? and no, i don’t equate the situation in mali to such a threat. frankly if we are going to get involved there, why aren’t we (the international community) doing something more in syria? oh yeah, cos they’d fight back with a little more than RPGs and IEDs.
grrr! rant over!
@Repulse
That’s my understanding also. Four are always available to the MOD whilst the remaining two are always busy on commercial contracts, unless needed for military business. Also don’t we have them on a twenty+ year PFI deal? I would imagine it would be cheaper to keep all six than to try and drop two of them from the deal. TD what’s your intel for this?
Did I see French paras leaping from C-130′s and C-160′s on the news earlier, albeit in grainy IR? Does this reopen the ‘need for paras in the 21st century’ debate?
A low level night jump into enemy held territory, whatever you think about the French, that takes some serious balls!
@ Ace Rimmer
If you go to the Open Thread Land, Sea, Hair II you will see I have posted YouTube video of the jump….
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2010/05/open-thread-land-sea-and-air-ii/comment-page-32/#comment-154999
The impression I get is that the Islamists have legged it, the SF guys checked it out, and then the paras dropped in to a cold drop zone to get people on the ground quickly.
Didnt the Yanks do it with the Rangers in Afghanistan.
I reckon a lot of the Tuaregs have seen the way the wind is blowing, especially after the Algerian business, and are helping the French to come in. Better for them that the French are on the ground to keep the Malian army in check.
ChrisM,
Yes: broadly speaking (and they are the ones with a century-plus of experience in the area, the bright side of France’s informal, post-independence empire) the French have played this pretty brilliantly, especially when you look at the relative care with which they’re cutting through (relatively loose) ties between the Tuareg separatists and the fundamentalist nutters. And, just as you say, the French are now “devil you know” honest brokers for all non-jihadi parties in the process. I feel like noting the whole process down with a bit more elegance, then taping it to the front doors of the Foreign Office and the Building (I’d pay for my own airfare to get back there), with a big sign pointing to each saying “THIS” in very large letters. It’s the lesson of Malaya and Oman (them brushfire wars wot worked) FFS! Only go in where there are clearly-defined parameters (so, not Afghanistan, then…) for a civil war unless your own citizens are immediately at stake, then slice the baddies away from bases of support, bollock them, and let them wither while the locals take over. Also, much nicer to do this sort of thing in relatively open terrain.
Ace,
We tend these days to forget that “Gallic dash” is an actual, operational thing. The results may have been mixed since 1870 (and the front doorway at St. Cyr should certainly read “PLAN VII– NEVER AGAIN” in French) but it has its moments as a tactical method.
TD et al.,
I’m hoping, really hoping, that all the foofraw about the Forces setting foot in Mali is 1) PR, 2) tied to the sorts of things (training anglophone locals to mind the store, offering intel support, protecting HM consular assets and so on) that the small Canadian missions there and in Niger are on about, at least according to Stephen Harper’s lying eyes. Also that this, like Libya, is another chance to show willing in the kind-of sort-of mutual defence pact at relatively low cost. But it does fit in a little too well with my cynical sense of the General Staff never wasting a good brushfire that Our Brave Boys could put out so as to ensure the institutional heft of the service. (More active service missions equals more need for squaddies and kit equals more budget plus more senior officers, which equals more four-stars at the decision making table….)
jack, so true, if not for the hostage thing that got splashed across headline news everywhere, I doubt anyone even knew or cared where Mali was other than the French. However, now that CNN and BBC have got into the act, for some reason or other, everyone seems to have developed the “everyone aboard the bandwagon!” mentality that for some reason or other, they HAVE to stick their oar in.
Have a look at this video -
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?list=UUPgLNge0xqQHWM5B5EFH9Cg&v=i_4FBk5Apuw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Di_4FBk5Apuw%26list%3DUUPgLNge0xqQHWM5B5EFH9Cg
Are we prepared to let innocent people, no matter their Colour, Creed or Religion be subjected to this level of violence? While we sit back and turn a blind eye whilst sipping tea or coffee and say not our problem.
A lot of people said Nazi Germany wasn’t our problem during the Thirties. Well it certainly turned into a problem in the Forties!
@Steve C
“…On the other hand, John Reid said in 2006 that the mission to Helmand would be accomplished without a single shot fired. (odd how that hasn’t been referenced in the media, relevant prior example).”
- Wrong. Reid hoped the mission could be achieved without firing a shot.
- Didn’t you?
Hi,
Been a lurker on TD for a little while and have really been enjoying reading through your articles.
Whilst i understand your idea of us not expecting more money for defence in future and trying to work with what we have is the most realistic and pragmatic approach to take surely this sort of thing (OP) highlights just what a ridiculous and utterly inept strategy the government and their predecessors have?
Cameron goes on about needing to cut spending but still wants to okay the big man in the world scene. Someone has to get it through to these idiots that if we carry on like this all we will be able to do is defend the mainland UK from a direct attack and NOTHING more.
If he wants to continue (as i believe we should) getting involved and being a force for good then they have to urgently reassess their spending.
Perhaps getting things in order and forcing cuts is seen as a way of routing out the ridiculous levels of waste throughout the MOD but theres no way they’ll then start increasing funding.
I can’t for the life of me understand why the foreign aid was protected whilst defence was cut. We can’t ever help everyone starving and in poverty in the world so our priority needs to be ourselves. Cut all foreign aid, every single penny and put it into defence. With a strong military actually able to effective achieve the things we want to on the international scene we could alleviate far more suffering than we ever could through giving hand outs to ungrateful third world countries who spend a larger portion of their GDP on defence than we do.
I support the French in Mali and think the Lancaster House treaty provides an interesting future for collaboration outside the EU with a country that could provide an ally outside the US as they look east. But in order to do so the government need to urgently reassess their budgeting. As well as foreign aid, welfare needs to urgently be looked at along with ‘human’ rights laws that let immigrants and people who’ve never worked abuse the system put in place to protect vulnerable members of society and those who fall on temporary hard times.
Sorry rant over now! Just seeing things like this is really starting to drive me up the wall!
Hello colky7 – The DfID budget does get put to some good use so I don’t support scrapping it altogether. Defence, ironically with us engaged in Afghanistan, is a hard sell to the general public at the moment; they seem to be more concerned with the airport taxes they have to pay before flying off on their foreign holidays. Perhaps if they thought more about what might happen to them while off in foreign parts, and who would have to rescue them….
So we are in the process of running away from Afghanistan as we do not have the resources for the long haul. Instead of raising the Army from 102,000 to 105,000, we are cutting it to 82,000, while finding new black holes to jump into.
I know I rant on about DfID, but even I would give it some money. The billion a year we give to disaster relief, I would not touch. A billion for those dots on the map still British, so they have airstrips, deep water quays, etc. A billion for basic development in Africa(roads, irrigation, simple tools). Another billion split between DfID admin & third world birth control. So thats 4 billion a year, not the 11 billion the coalition is planning to spend. Aid insiders say 80% of aid is wasted/stolen. It may be easier to keep an eye on 4 rather than 11 billion & make sure it is spent wisely.
That frees up 7 billion. Dilnot to give dignity to our elderly, would cost £ 1.7 billion. The rest on defence, transport/energy infrastructure, grants to factories & grants to insulate old homes.
@Simon257, I agree, we should’ve gone into Rwanda when we had the chance. Ok, we couldn’t have saved the day but a battalion on the ground and securing a safe haven could’ve made a big difference for those who could’ve made it there.
@John Hartley
” Instead of raising the Army from 102,000 to 105,000, we are cutting it to 82,000, while finding new black holes to jump into.”
Never mind, John. Perhaps when the British Army is down to three soldiers and the Regimental goat, they’ll finally see sense!
@colky7
“Cameron goes on about needing to cut spending but still wants to okay the big man in the world scene. Someone has to get it through to these idiots that if we carry on like this all we will be able to do is defend the mainland UK from a direct attack and NOTHING more.”
Trouble is, colky, defence is a soft target, whereas welfare is not and £13 billion worth of foreign aid is largely the price Cameroon pays for the continuance of the Coalition.
Simon 257
Elements of the Chinese govt are actively engaged in appropriating the land and only means of support,of may rural citizens for ‘development. those who oppoes it are often beaten severely, women raped and both sexes killed.
Political opponents are still routinely arrested beaten and disappeared.
In Burma
The last keren stronghold is about to fall to a regime that still murders and tortures all who oppose it.
In Western Pakistan
The murder of any who oppose the Taliban’s defacto power are killed witness the young girl shot by the taliban for going to school.
In Various Muslim states Women risk beating rape murder and worse for driving cars talking to men etc.
One of Russia’s main exports is sex slaves. various opponants of the state keep getting killed, sing the wrong song in the wrong place- and get a free holiday in Siberia.
I forget which one. but one of central asias leaders is recorded as liking to boils his opponants alive
Then there is North Korea that executes people by morter bombs.
Thats lots of evil shit When do we attack?
Oh I forgot
Iran
Syria
Nigeria
@Ixion
The argument that you shouldnt intervene anywhere because you wont intervene everywhere is a weak one.
If you saw a kid hitting an old lady would you ignore it because you wouldnt intervene if it was Mike Tyson hitting her?
Any hope the Malian Islamists had was totally extinguished by the Algerian business. They killed a lot of countries people, made a lot of enemies, and proved why you couldnt have power vacuums.
Observer,
(Sorry to be so long in reply — though I suppose here in the far northwest of N. America we’re closer to each other’s time zones than the folks back in the old country) yes the sticky-beak approach is a very real problem. Once one gets the curtains twitching in the English-language media (especially the meth-addict-like informational requirements — desires? — of the 24-hour news cycle) it can have measurable effects. One of these days we’re going to run into a REDFOR canny enough to play that like a violin and it will be a long day indeed.
In the meanwhile, though, since I remembered that reading maps can be a useful thing
, I came up with a counter to my own argument last night. Revving up the anglophone neighbours and showing willing with support for France’s intervention drives this problem, physically, further and further away from Nigeria. Nigeria a patchwork post-imperial state to rival India, or even Pakistan (even the flipping name is an acronym, a nightmare for a nother time…), with its own Islamic radicals, oil, and a vastly larger population. Nigeria, seen by a US moving back onto its own traditional “patrimonie” (Latin America, the Pacific, and the Israeli and Gulf Arab client states), as a British problem just as much as Mali is French (though the USN is willing to help out with coastal security on behalf of Houston’s drilling/refining companies it seems.) Nice to lower the gas setting on that little difficulty.
ChrisM
I accept just because we can’t help everyone we will help no one is weak.
However the argument that we should intervene solely because evil shit is going down, is to say the least a bit ‘open ended’, and unless it is accompanied by some pretty cogent self interest as well should not be a cause of intervenion.
After all we ended up in the shit in Iran because according to reliable witneses, Tony Blair wanted to attack Sadam ,’because he’s evil’, and that went well.
to answer the ro ro question the reference is at
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2013-01-25a.135779.h&m=40378
apparently cutting the point class PFI by 2 (not sure which ones) represents “better value”
We will see !
IXION, actually everyone,
was Iraq bad for us:
(a) inherently, it is just “to big a challenge” to do regime change,
(b) because it was on a false/poor pretext,
or
(c) because there was no plan for setting up a post-Saddam government?
I can certainly be convinced either way.