Not sure if this is actually news to anyone but another interesting FOI request popped into my RSS feed today;
What is the timeframe of HMS Ocean’s retirement and are there plans in place to replace her with a new build LPH? If so, will she be fully capable of operating both F35 and rotary assets?
The answer;
The date of HMS Ocean’s withdrawal from service has not yet been decided. Our provisional planning assumption is that she will remain in service until at least 2018. There are presently no plans to replace her with a new build Landing Platform Helicopter.
Ocean will continue to operate helicopters, as befits her role, but she will not be capable of operating the F35 Lightning. The F35 will instead operate from the new Aircraft Carriers of the Queen Elizabeth Class
There you go then, pick the bones out of that one 
no real suprise lets just hope it means we get the two QE’s funded.
Ask us again in 2015 when we may or may not be in power, and may or may not be in recession.:)
as long as we can roll a brigade into theater across a beach i am no too concerned about the specifics.
Last I heard Ocean’s replacement had been rolled into the Bulwark and Albion replacement. There was at least one study that looked at a pair of large (30k tons) LHD’s. One suspects such thoughts have now been wiped out by reality but frankly, after all the investment in maritime rotary (both AAC Apaches and RM Commando Helicopters), I really think the UK needs to maintain the ability to operate one helo dedicated flat-top and one F-35 dedicated flat-top simultaneously.
Surely the red herring is suggesting in the question that Ocean would have operated F35s ? Wasn’t it able to transport Harriers but not operate them or similar ?
Of course, using the 2nd QE CV as an LPH is a very exopensive way of doing business… Unless we are planning to use the cats and traps to launch helos !
jedibeeftrix I am unxsure we have *really* had the ability to roll a bde into theatre over a beach for some time. Not unless it’s a very small bde, a very accommodating beach (like a port) and a very benign theatre with cooperative allies
@ Tweckyspat
“Of course, using the 2nd QE CV as an LPH is a very exopensive way of doing business… Unless we are planning to use the cats and traps to launch helos !”
You do know that the Cats and traps are gone now?
The operating cost for CVF around £70 million a year is the same as for an Invincible Class so I don’t see cost being an issue in using it as an LHD.
It has space for Ocean’s full complement of helicopters as well as two squadron’s of F35′s. Essentially more capacity than we can actually put on it and we will have two.
In terms of landing a brigade. I see a lot of comments than we can’t now do this. However in 1982 we landed two full brigades 8,000 miles a way with only a fraction of the amphibious ship capability we have today. Can’t see why we could not do the same thing today if we wanted to.
@martin, the operating costs are not £70m a year. PH gave that figure in his speech as the cost of keeping the second carrier minimally manned in reserve, so not the cost of keeping it at sea as a CVF or LPH.
The non-replacement of Ocean doesn’t surprise, I get the feeling we’ll end up with the QEs operating as large “America class” types, supported as necessary by the Albions, etc.
WillS
agreed with martin.
the atfg (?) might be sized for 1800 in normal events, but given time to assemble all assets and not merely those in their ready-cycle, as well as overload conditions, we could probably move the bulk of 3Cdo as cohesive fighting brigade force.
The key point between Ocean and a CVF would be how close to shore it would operate when landing a brigade. The America class will have the use of fast hovercrafts which will enable them to stand much further offshore than say Ocean or Bulwark would using traditional landing craft and thus slightly further out of harms way. I suspect the reason why PASCAT was dropped is that when somebody intelligent modelled it’s use with a CVF in LHD mode it simply made no sense. Speed plus distance = safety.
sorry all I was adrift of latest decision on cat and traps. or ahead of the next change of mind.
Martin – However in 1982 we landed two full brigades 8,000 miles a way with only a fraction of the amphibious ship capability we have today. Can’t see why we could not do the same thing today if we wanted to.
i think the devil is in the detail. Corporate hardly a model of preparedness for amphib landings IMHO
we certainly don’t have oodles more amphibious capability now than we did in 1982 and what we could take up from trade now wouldn’t be so easy to make an amphib landing from (not so many NORLAND’s around now)
Plus those 2 full brigades were largely brave men with ponchos and not protected patrol vehicles etc
Plus indicated above we would be short of very shallow water LSLs and delivery craft (RCL/RPL anyone ?) which could work the longer loops back to wherever the deeper draught troop carriers were parked.
of course it might work if we just want something on TV where we launch ripped marines fastroping onto a tropical idyll to scare the natives but the nitty gritty of pallets and vehicles across a beach – I just don’t believe we could do it at that scale anymore. sorry and all that.
Bearing in mind the massive cost and long lead times involved in designing and building anything new, has anybody out there got views on the opportunity/cost of replacing Ocean with a third CVF? Possibly with some modifications to facilitate it’s use as a Commando Carrier.
Be a big hit in these parts if Osborne decided to announce it in the Autumn Statement…
(I do know I need to take more water with it, but as darkness falls in these parts I need a bit of cheering up!)
“I suspect the reason why PASCAT was dropped is that when somebody intelligent modelled it’s use with a CVF in LHD mode it simply made no sense. Speed plus distance = safety.”
PACSCAT was not “dropped”, rather FLC was pushed rightwards, largely due to the “oops we have no money” scenario.
One can’t use QEC as an LHD in any case as there is no ability to transfer vehicles to landing craft.
Short-term we use whichever QE is active as a combined FJ and LPH asset, which may not be ideal but with their immense deck and hangar space I’m sure it will suffice.
Long-term we see an Albion/Ocean replacement LHD class in the late 2020′s or early 2030′s which will lift the burden.
In this scenario the gap in which a QE would have to adapt and provide commando assault would actually be comparable to the full on absence, or ‘capability holiday’ we are taking with proper carrier aviation, hence why I see it as doable and ultimately acceptable.
Anyway this subject has been done to death! Unless any more money is forthcoming then the above represents the only realistic way Ocean’s capability, if not Ocean herself is replaced.
@WILLS
‘I get the feeling we’ll end up with the QEs operating as large “America class” types, supported as necessary by the Albions, etc’
Yeah I can defiantly see that as a likely outcome, and actually is that such a bad thing?
Seems like a pretty decent capability mix to me and a lot better than it could feasibly turn out.
(P.S on my last post, if their was some way of refitting and retaining Ocean into the mid 2020′s as originally planned then it would of course make the whole situation more palatable).
We need to differentiate between an amphib landing and an administrative offload. It would depend upon how much you wanted to land on the beach in a certain time frame and what sort of threat was faced.
If we had all current amphibs for the op, e.g 2 x LPd and 3 x LSD(A) we could load 3,000 troops onboard. Possibly not for entire voyage but maybe by cross decking from other platforms for the assault phase.
Now the 2 LPDs each can carry 4 LCU Mk 10 and 4 LCVP and the Bays 1 LCU Mk 10. Each of the LCU Mk 10 is rated at 120 troops but lest only put 100 on. That is 600 and the 4 LCVPs can deliver another full company, so we have a Commando plus in 1 amphib wave.
Now we have to look at rotary wing assets, it is true that neither the LPD or LSDA is designed to carry its own organic rotary wing assets but they have Chinook capable flight decks.
So if we utilise Chinooks and Merlins from our LPH CVF and RFA vessels further offshore we could look at a rotary wing insertion wave of approximately 400 via 6 Chinooks and 6 Merlins.
So we could put 1100 RM on the beach in 1 wave. Now you may not want to do that, instead utilising the LCU Mk10 to land heavier equipment and using the LCVP and rotary assets to put a Commando on the beach and then land teh rest via the rotary assets hopping back wards and forwards from the beach but it would only require 1.5 extra round journeys to empty the amphibs and have 1100 ashore without using the LCU Mk10 for troops.
As I said earlier it is threat dependent and also weather, could we use mexeflotes from the Bays for further heavy kit and how would we offload the Points and STUFT ships.
I think we could engineer a Brigade across the beach in an administrative offload and we could certainly put a pretty powerful BG of between 1000-1200 men supported by arty and armour ashore in reasonably short order.
What is needed is a large fast dock ship capable of keeping up with CVF (20+kt top speed). 6 x LCU(FLC) (plus LCVP on davits of course) and instead of wasting internal volume on a garage for helicopters using it for cargo. A sort of LPD-17 / Karel Doormen / Harpers Ferry hybrid.
If CVF plays host 1 x Close Combat Company, 1 x Stand Off Company, and a small TAC HQ, plus 12 x Merlin and 6 x Wildcat to move them. The balance of the commando berthed in the LPD with artillery battery, loggies, and engineers. Roughly aiming for about 1100 on ration. I think a USMC has 1300 marines.
The LPD joins CVF in a combined arms mini-battle group so won’t need extra escorts. If we build 4 we can always “surge”, whatever that means…….
If we could flog the other Bays to Australia we could replace them with a new fast LPD(A) like Karel Doormen. 4 should do us.
Hey long time stalker on this which i love to read though.My take is this the answer say A) out of service date hasn’t been determined and B)its at least 2018 suggests to my an extension maybe on the cards. Also hammond said an additional 70million for the second carrier.im assuming ocean is already budgeted for and in planning assumptions? why would he say additional if it was the case pow would replace ocean? food for thought.
Hello all from a long time stalker on this site. my take on it is this that A) the out of service date has not bee decided and B) its at least 2018 suggests to me a life extension maybe on the cards. also hammond said an additonal 70 million would be needed to fund pow. isnt ocean already funded for and in there planning assumption? why would you need additional funding if pow was a replacement? food for thought.
APaTS
I am very impressed by your quick sums. Admin Offload works for me but when you add in the vehicles that even a “light” Cdo appears to need these days the offload times you quote get much much bigger. I think a LABG is about the limit in anything other than benign conditions, which is also probably the highest threat in which you’d want to bring the LSD(A)s close it. The LSD(A)s are not designed to be assault shipping. I get a bit tired of Royal talking about them as if they are LPDs.
Let’s have an America-class from the USN.
If we are playing fantasy fleet, then can we have traps on QE/PoW, for Stobar, like China, Russia & India?
Replace HMS Ocean with the same again, but stretched 90 ft to be the same as the old HMS Hermes. Bow & machinery from Rolls-Royce fast cargo ship. Hull given light ice hardening, like NZ patrol ships. Flat top for Helos including CH53K. Small ski ramp for emergency F-35B use. Vehicle deck for carrying as many MBTs as possible. All internal bits toughened up to cope with “ripped marines”.
“The operating cost for CVF around £70 million a year is the same as for an Invincible Class so I don’t see cost being an issue in using it as an LHD.” – I think the main problem with that is the lack of a “D” in “CVF.”
“Let’s have an America-class from the USN.” – I suggested this, a little tongue in cheek, earlier only for it to be pointed out to me that the Americas need a good sized country as crew. Perhaps if we ditched the bowling alleys?
Heard Hammond on the radio yesterday saying that we could indeed manage a 1982-like deployment again. Appreciate the breakdown of capability from APATS above. Check out Sir H’s blog for a post about the current state of the Argentine navy and the comment on their air force. Enough to make you weep in sympathy.
Ref: USS America Class.
LHA 6 and 7, do not have a well deck. The third America Class ship, will have one, but only capable of carrying one LCAC, instead of the three, the Wasp Class can carry.
Ref: The Norland.
Why would we need to use a Ferry. The MOD have 6 Point Class RO-RO Ships at hand. TD has a photo on here, that shows a Point unloading Vehicles directly onto a Mexifloat. So if push comes to shove, we could put a Brigade on the Beach.
If HMS Ocean crew transfers to HMS Prince of Wales as expected in 2018. We should expect, both HMS Albion and Bulwark to be both in commission at the very least.
Narrow answer to a narrow question…
My view is invest in faster assault landing craft / hover craft with longer legs and park your “assault ship” over the horizon. These assault ships should be RFA manned and based on a joint solid store / amphibious assault model with a well dock, hanger space for helos and divots. Lastly, build them in Korea
oh and also name them after the knights of the round table…
The Americas gaining a steel beach for an LCAC should be seen in the same light as giving a ship a flight deck.
Loading a Mexifloat from a ship’s ramp can only be done in very low sea states. It isn’t an option for an assault.
RFA Brave Sir Robin????!!!!??
Or Sir Prancelot?
Have you seen the court case outcome against Argentina?
When Argentina defaulted , it forced its bondholders to take a haircut. Now a New York court says that was illegal. It will make it hard for Argentina to buy/deal/raise cash abroad.
@ NaB re RFA Brave Sir Robin
I suppose her galley would specialise in spam, bacon, spam, egg, spam, and spam?
@ Repulse
You are Lewis Page and I claim my £5 book token.
“hanger space for helos and divots” – You should always replace your divots.
X, If they can only take 1 LCAC that is 1 MBT at a time at 40kts. I admire a lot of USN designs but the America class seems to be a PHD in compromise.
@ APATS
Well MEU only has a “platoon” of 4 M1A’s which are normally carried in the LSD (4 LCAC) (or LPD with 2 LCAC) so they should be all right!
LCAC struggle with Abrams anyway in less than ideal conditions. LCACs are also resource heavy.
As I said the dock on the later Americas is more like a flight deck so “stuff” can come and go by sea as an option. Rather like giving an LPD a flight deck. The Americas will be too busy as the centre of flying ops. The USN has lots of dock ships etc. without needing the Americas. Further that is why they are investing in those mobile landing platforms so stuff can be offloaded dockless ships.
US concept has been that the amphibs would launch the assault from over the horizon, but have to wonder if that supposed advantage holds up when the enemy has cruise missiles and drones, over the horizon radar, and satellites for targeting. Might it be better to move the the landing closer and shorten the time to get the troops ashore?
Isn’t the idea that CBG batter the enemy to death and then the ARG does it part?
Most states would struggle to keep tabs on an USN CBG. How long would a great big flapping MPA survive against a BVR missile? And what if the MPA’s base had been knocked out before it had got airborne or could return home?
X, depends on the ROE, if you do not have permission to fire until fire upon or until directly threatened it is difficult to prevent the MPA circling your TG at 60 miles or so in international air space.
What you would do to make targeting more difficult would be to adopt an EMCON plan where only 1 unit, probably an AAW escort would emit and it would feed the link pic to the other units. Making ID if individual TG assets far more difficult.
Sometimes you have to play the cards dealt to you.
@ APATS
I thought we had already started shooting! Of course ROE come into play. I just hope the opposition are just as careful before they launch their missiles and take out a container ship full of fridges and flat panel TVs, a cruise ship full of drunk retirees, and car carrier full of Nissans. My point was the USN have enough assets to fight and protect the ARG and the latter would only be brought into play once it was safe. Maybe the US need to develop some tech that detects ‘planes full of nuns and orphans?
with regard to the LCAC it’s getting an upgrade and a new name, SSC. video explains the upgrades, ie better payload (chally 2 now in limits) spped etc etc. It’s getting rolls royce engines, perhaps griffon could build under licence, PACSCAT seems to have slipped off the radar.
info link here;
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Ship-to-Shore-Connector-the-USNs-New-Hovercraft-07460/#more-7460
video link here;
hang on lads i’ve got an idea… greece has some of these and they’re brassic!!!
@Simon257
‘If HMS Ocean crew transfers to HMS Prince of Wales as expected in 2018 we should expect both HMS Albion and Bulwark to be both in commission at the very least’.
I think both Albion’s and both carriers in full commission is the sensible, but also most optimistic scenario we can reach.
I don’t think costs are the real problem, it’s manpower requirements. Finding enough crew for all 4 ships is going to be a tall order.
God damn it got my divots and davits mixed up again
X, nope.
@ Repulse
But I have already spent the book token on a 1978 Bunty annual!
Using CVF in the amphibious role over a dedicated LHD is a waste of resources and not cost effective or a good way to use defence funds. CVF is much more expensive and has less capability than a dedicated LHD. Though as there is not the political will to invest in the fleet, I believe the navy will try and save the second CVF by passing it off as Ocean replacement and then 2030~2040 they will be planning to introduce two new dedicated LHD. The money is there it’s the political will that is lacking(though this changes when its too late).
The other problem is as challenger mentioned, the reduction in personnel in the armed forces means there may not be the manpower available. This is a serious concern and there are other navies around the world which are worried about the consequences of this.
mick 346 said “I believe the navy will try and save the second CVF by passing it off as Ocean replacement”
Reminded me of Ripping Yarns,
Mr. Ellis: [in woodwork class] What is that, Tomkinson?
Tomkinson: [standing before an enormous ship he's assembling] It’s a model icebreaker, sir.
Mr. Ellis: It’s a bit big for a model, isn’t it?
Tomkinson: It’s a full-scale model, sir.
Mr. Ellis: [annoyed] It’s not a model if it’s full-scale, Tomkinson, it’s an icebreaker.
Tomkinson: Yes, it’s good, isn’t it, sir? It’s got three engines, an enormous…
Mr. Ellis: No no no, that’s not the point. That is not a model. It’ll be hell if this comes out at speech day exhibition. You’re a very stupid boy building icebreakers like this, Tomkinson.
Tomkinson: [deflated] Yes, sir.
Mr. Ellis: Now I won’t say anything to the headmaster if you can get it down to a minimum of four foot.
Tomkinson: But sir! There’s fifteen hundred tons of steel in this…
Mr. Ellis: Do you want to come and see the headmaster with me?
Tomkinson: No, sir.
Mr. Ellis: Well, melt it down at once.
@ Challenger
True enough, we are a ships company short. How long would it take for the RN, to generate a ships company for HMS Albion in an emergency is a question, that I don’t think the MOD has either not been asked or not answered.
Five years ago, the RN had the ability to theoretically, put two ARG’s to sea at the same time. The only other nation in the world that can do that is the US Navy. Now we can only do one.
” CVF is much more expensive and has less capability than a dedicated LHD”
Utter hoop. Justify that “more expensive” statement at your leisure…..
What’s all this about PASCAT being dropped?
It seems pretty clear from out here. 2 QE plus 2 Albions with both Ocean and Argus reduced to razor blades.
As to the gentleman (X) who suggested selling more Bay Class to OZ, sorry we are still trying to unscramble the one we have got The December return to service date is looking a bit iffy, too much transformer damage. Siemens seems to be in the RAN’s sights at the moment.
Sooooo… How much do you think a 10,500 ton DDH would cost? 1.5 times a GP T 26? If so, what about 3-4 DDH instead of the 5 GP T26′s…
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/8725/copy2ofpicture10ps5.png
Aaaannnddd… Instead of the 8-11 sentry frigates, 8-12 10,000 ton multirole vessels based on the Endurance 120 class for the MHPC roles.
DDH could be ASW escort OR small LPH, depending on helicopters carried. MRV could be used for MCM, MSO, OR small LPD (with RO-RO capability if bow doors are kept)…
“8-12 10,000 ton multirole vessels based on the Endurance 120 class for the MHPC roles.”
Ouch ST, that’s ~4 ARGs in disguise.
They do still retain beaching capabilities though, so if you’re in a tearing great hurry and a bit looney, you can just ram the ship into the sand and open the bow doors.
I’d expect the Admiral to have a long talk with the ship captain later, but it does drop a whole company on the sand in one shot, with cover fire from the bow gun.
@ Repulse
“These assault ships should be RFA manned and based on a joint solid store / amphibious assault model with a well dock, hanger space for helos and divots.”
I never understood why we do not have an LCAC equivalent. It would surely solve many problems for us. I think I read some where that conventional landing craft can only access around 15% of the worlds coast line vs Hover craft at over 80%. For a force like ours that does not believe in an opposed landing but rather strategic surprise surely something like LCAC would make our job much easier for only a relatively small investment. Having proper amphibious APC’s that could deploy well out to sea would also seem like a worth while investment.
From what I can recall, hovercraft tend to be maintainance intensive, with the skirtlife measured in hundreds of hours instead of thousands. This makes them costly to operate for long as opposed to a floaty hull that if properly treated, can last for years.
Maintainance is also one of the flaws I see in ST’s 8-12 LPD fleet. More ships = more items to maintain.
On the bright side, each of those only cost about 100M pounds. Give it 200M to be on the safe side and you can operate it with ~60-70 men, 20% of an Albion’s crew.
Hanger space is a bit short though.
Still 50/50 on the beaching idea. Hate the idea of sticking a HVU into the front of the battle, but really love the idea of storming the beaches with 3x 76mm and 6x 30mm Typhoons on a 3 ship wave covering my back. And slapping a battalion on the sand in one pass at 15-20 knots with armour spearhead and all.
It’s the dramatic actor in me I guess