The UK’s First F35B

93 thoughts on “The UK’s First F35B”

1. Jim July 22, 2012 at 12:10 pm

   Second UK F35B takes off.
   http://www.codeonemagazine.com/f35_news_item.html?item_id=763
2. Mr.fred July 22, 2012 at 1:46 pm

   Red Trousers,

   The knife linked to is a fixed blade – i.e. not “UK street legal” in the sense of being able to carry it about day-to day. General carry is limited to 3″ long and a folding (not locking) blade. If you have a lawful reason to carry a fixed blade about then it’s fine, but for general carry plod will look upon it most askance.

   From memory, the only things that are flat-out illegal are butterfly knives, spring or gravity-operated folders or concealed knives (sword-sticks and the like)

   If you are looking at a fixed blade, as a starting knife I would recommend one of these:
   http://www.woodsmithstore.co.uk/shop/Products/Tools/Knives/Gerneral+Duty+Knives/Product/Mora+of+Sweden+840+Companion+MG+Carbon/
   For a cheap (but decent) folding knife Opinels are pretty good, but the blades are pretty thin and tend to have locks on them.
3. Red Trousers July 22, 2012 at 3:08 pm

   Mr Fred,

   I was unaware of the “fixed” aspect not being legal – I thought it was only the length of blade that mattered as less than three inches.
4. Mr.fred July 22, 2012 at 3:38 pm

   Folding and, critically, not locking. The 1988 Criminal Justice Act notes:
   “This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.”

   A couple of later court cases have set precedent that a locking blade counts as a fixed blade in the eyes of the law.
5. Red Trousers July 22, 2012 at 3:46 pm

   Thanks Mr Fred, looks like George’s son had better go for a folding blade. I’m sure there’s some reasonable ones around. I’ll carry on taking my chances – my little (fixed) blade knife has been with me for 38 years every day.
6. George July 22, 2012 at 4:05 pm

   All good stuff – thanks chaps.

   George
7. Phil July 22, 2012 at 4:42 pm

   “I do regret that young children today seem to be alienated from the natural world around them.”

   Not to derail the thread but please this is the usual Daily Mail type rubbish. If you have not yet, do read The People’s War where evacuee children flood into the country not knowing what a cow is or the difference between a pig and a sheep.

   And it also describes the kids who used to take shits in the corner of the house as thats how they lived in the slums in the east end and kids sewn into their clothes and evacuee mothers handing over their kids to the hosts and going on the piss.

   The past, was not a better place.
8. Red Trousers July 22, 2012 at 5:27 pm

   Phil,

   you appear to think that at some point I said “become” or became”, as though there is a retrograde process going on. I don’t for a moment think that kids from a Glasgow tenement or a Cheltenham suburb in 1940 were that wired into the natural world. Their country cousins probably weren’t that wired into the modern town or city world, either.

   What does seem to me to be happening is that country children seem quite clued up and wise on modern urban things (and why not – cars and ubiquitous TV etc), but city and town kids seem like Bambi when you put them in the country. We had several of my daughter’s school friends come to spend a weekend with us. Not one of them could tell north in either day or night, none had a clue about weather patterns or could tell rainy clouds from ignorable clouds, none wanted to drink woodland tea or to skin the rabbits I trapped (although they did all eat some of them), most shied away from converting brambles into lashings for our raft competition. Thank God my daughter was able to show them how. She’s now nicknamed “Ninja” by her friends which pleases both her and me, but really, it’s all pretty basic stuff.
9. Chris.B. July 22, 2012 at 6:00 pm

   “Not one of them could tell north in either day or night, none had a clue about weather patterns or could tell rainy clouds from ignorable clouds, none wanted to drink woodland tea or to skin the rabbits I trapped (although they did all eat some of them), most shied away from converting brambles into lashings for our raft competition. Thank God my daughter was able to show them how. She’s now nicknamed “Ninja” by her friends which pleases both her and me, but really, it’s all pretty basic stuff.”

   To be fair though, these are not exactly priority skills for modern kids. Maybe if there is some form of Zombie Apocalypse then I’ll end up taking that statement back, but right now?
10. Red Trousers July 22, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    @ Chris B,

    well, those are skills I’d value more than some nonsense about Justin Bieber.

    Had an odd experience on the M3 a couple of enters ago. Sudden snowstorm, and there’s about 1000 cars stuck between Junctions 7 and 8 around Basingstoke. We we there all night.

    Very few had water in their cars, although that was not such a problem with the snow. No one appeared to have any dry food in the glovebox, and when I got a fire going on the hard shoulder the first reaction was from a job’s worth who worried about setting the woods alight (as if). Several cars ran out of fuel due to having the engines on all night. Not many people had proper boots and so were hopping about in wet leather shoes. Only a few among us had shovels to dig snow away from the wheels, so come morning when a snowplough and gritter had made a track way, lots of cars still could not move. I’d had quite a comfortable night lying on an old piece of carpet I keep in my car and in a small snow shelter I dug in the wood. I don’t think anyone I saw in the locality apart from me was able to wash and shave in the morning.

    Completely pathetic performance from the British public, all because of about 6 inches of snow in Basingstoke, which is hardly Siberia.
11. Red Trousers July 22, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    “winters”, not “enters”. Ruddy spell check thinks it knows better than me.
12. Simon July 22, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    RT,

    I’ve read books-and-books on survival (the basics) and still failed to be even slightly prepared for being stranded on the M11 a few years ago.

    Even though I carry a little survival kit with me every time I’m “out in the wilds” – weird how you get caught short.

    I’ve kept a sleeping bag in the boot ever since!

    Sorry to hear about the knife thing. I guess that’s why I get looked at with my Bowie knife strapped to my thigh when I’m in the West Country. They smile, though, when I cut the brambles and hedges back to get through when the path is overgrown! Health and Safety – pah! Now, I just keep a “proper” knife in my pack for emergencies and use the old Swiss Army most of the time… just try knocking a fish out with one, or gutting it so that you can take it home in your bag – next to impossible!
13. Red Trousers July 22, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    Simon,

    I must say, I was unaware of the “knife thing” (i.e. got to be folding) until Mr Fred pointed it out. Though mine is never on public display – that’s asking for trouble. Trick in life is to slip through unobtrusively.

    Never had too much luck with fish – caught a few, but not lots. Rabbits are much easier.

    Good stuff with the sleeping bag in the boot. I have some old carpet, but I’m a bit odd in not liking sleeping bags. I also now carry a spare business shirt still in the original packaging, after my M3 overnight when I had to recycle the day before shirt, and to be honest it had lost some crispness. Grollies and socks can be turned inside out, so not such a worry there.
14. Red Trousers July 22, 2012 at 9:49 pm

    Simon,

    if you’ve got £17 going spare, a Bahco Laplander folding saw is the dog’s nuts for creating some firewood.
15. Simon July 23, 2012 at 8:22 am

    RT,

    Hmmm, that Bahco Laplander looks much more legal. I may well buy said item. Thanks for the pointer.
16. George July 24, 2012 at 8:51 am

    Just ordered one from Amazon today, thanks for that
17. paul g July 24, 2012 at 10:23 am

    lots of videos on you tube about how to make an alcohol stove from a coke can (well 2 really) I made one when i was bored one weekend it was good fun.
18. Red Trousers July 24, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    Thanks Paul G, brought some memories back.

    We used to use full sized coke cans, buried up to half way for some stability, and 3/4 full of petrol. 20 or so holes punched through the upper slopey “shoulder” of the can for the jets with a pointy screwdriver. Dig a circular hole 18 inches deep and then semi bury the coke can at the bottom of that and you’ve got enough fuel to cook a meal and boil a brew without anyone noticing visually, but it can get a bit whiffy with petrol fumes. That special burning alcohol is I suspect odourless.

    Nivea tins work as well, enough fuel for a hot brew. I might buy my kids one of those metal 58 pattern mugs which you can cook / boil directly in (I think they are called Crusader? – came in after I pushed off so I never got issued with one). Silvermans and the usual suspects sell them for less than £20. Looks like a good little system with a 58 pattern water bottle and pouch, neatly contained on your belt with a litre of water as well.

    I always steal those little individual coffee sachets from the room in the cheap little chain hotels my company insists are adequate for business use. Ideal when you are out on a bit of a wander, although I prefer my coffee not to smell and taste of petrol so build a little wood fire. I’ve got a metal mug (normal shape) that sits well on a fire for boiling, and a piece of muslin stretched over the top and held in place with a thickish rubber band acts as a lid to hold in the sachets and milk pots, and as an emergency filter for stream water.
19. Simon July 24, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    We used to make a shoe polish stove – I guess similar to RT’s Nivea stove, except you roll a 1/2″ strip of corrugated paper into a spiral, shove it in the tin and then melt a couple of candles into and over the paper. A little blacker smoke than the stove mentioned above but utterly brilliant for cooking a tin of beans and a brew.

    A damn sight safer for your kids to try than petrol too
20. paul g July 24, 2012 at 9:35 pm

    if it’s a metal mug, don’t forget a strip of black nasty (duct tape to normal people) stops you burning you lip on the hot metal, eh eh down there for dancing, up here for thinking!!! BTW google bio-lite stove, what a cracking little thing

    nah, i’m a good bloke here’s a link

    http://biolitestove.com/
21. Red Trousers July 24, 2012 at 11:06 pm

    @ Paul G,

    I am numb-plussed by the idea of a small camping wood burning stove with an integrated USB port for charging your mobile phone or iPod. Possibly, the idea is genius, but I am clearly not the man to sell it and make millions for the patent-owner. The idea just seems so alien to me. I must be getting old and out of touch. My daughter would immediately think it is a brilliant idea, but then she’s never had to carry unnecessary kit through the woods.

    It does also seem to be a bit large for a belt-order survival pack, and nor do I think that iTunes forms part of the E&E kit. Christ on a bike, my E&E kit was in a 58 pattern water bottle pouch, and I could live for weeks on that.***

    *** My SSM disapproved hugely of me allowing my Troop to customise our web gear, instead of the insane packing list he published for the full CEFO. After I’d been a Troop Leader for a year, I walked into his office (closed the door behind me) and told him to sod off – it was my Troop, my boys and his ideas were from antiquity. He left me alone after that, particularly when my Troop won our Regimental Cup for best Troop. We used to cut about with 2 pouches only – water bottle, and E&E gear. SMG magazines were stuffed into our smocks. I also bought all of the boys a decent knife – the one piece of kit you can’t really do without.
22. WiseApe July 27, 2012 at 3:18 pm

    @All

    Just to bring you back to the point of the post – do these 3 plus the one on order count towards our total of 48? Is 48 enough to equip 2 carriers concurrently, even with only 12 embarked? Is the plan still to share between RN and RAF?
23. Jeremy M H July 27, 2012 at 3:27 pm

    Honestly if they are just buying 48 doesn’t it make the most sense to allocate all of them to the Fleet Air Arm and then have the RAF be an all Eurofighter force until it makes the switch to F-35A down the road? I don’t see any benefit to splitting the F-35B force at all. You can always land base them easily enough if necessary and use FAA pilots.

    The F-35B force mixed with an eventual F-35A(or whatever the newest variant is in 2025-35 range) for the RAF to replace the Eurofighters make the most sense to me honestly. You can always accelerate the F-35A buy since production should be pretty high if you need them sooner due to a changing environment as well.
24. Jim July 27, 2012 at 4:03 pm

    We are also supposed to be supplying six aircraft to the joint training squadron/wing in the USA. So that drops the total available down to 42. One carriers worth with attrition spares?
25. ArmChairCivvy July 27, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    exactly
26. WiseApe July 27, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    @Jeremy M H – Yes to all-Typhoon RAF, always seemed daft to upgrade T1s then sell/scrap them as soon as T3s arrived, so total force ought to be circa 160 Typhoons. Suspect only T3s will get AESA etc upgrades though to save money. Of course it makes sense to give all F35Bs to FAA – so not likely then!

    If I’m interpreting Hammond correctly the eventual F35A buy will not replace Typhoon 1-4-1, but at least we’ll be buying a mature aircraft in high rate production, rather than an immature aircraft in low rate production = risky and pricey.

    But what is now RAF’s Tornado replacement strike aircraft? Typhoon with conformal tanks? Or lion’s share of F35B buy? Strike UCAV may also be around in 2025-35 timeframe. Of course, if we’d stuck with cats and traps we’d be buying Cs for both forces!
27. Challenger July 27, 2012 at 7:50 pm

    ‘But what is now RAF’s Tornado replacement strike aircraft?’.

    That’s the problem isn’t it. Under current plans the FAA and RAF will be sharing 48 Lightning B for the foreseeable future, and I wouldn’t mind betting that Tornado is run down pretty fast as they come in-to service.

    As Jim said 48 is enough to do 1 carrier’s worth of jets with spares, or alternatively at a push it could be a half decent strike platform for RAF, but it can’t do both!

    Trying to accomplish both tasks simultaneously with only 48 aircraft will provide capabilities in a fairly watered down and feeble state.

    You could counter argue by mentioning UCAV’S and additional Lightning’s, but who know’s when they will be available or has any clue how many we will be able to afford.

    I agree, at least on paper, that an all Typhoon RAF is a good idea. Give them conformal tanks and mature the combat systems and you have a pretty amazing (plus crucially flexible) platform.

    Couple that with a FAA in sole possession of the F35B (as Jeremy says operating them from land in a pinch would be easy) and the prospect of a proven, full production F35A replacing Typhoon down the line and I reckon you have a winning formula!
28. All Politicians are the Same July 27, 2012 at 7:58 pm

    Challenger, Makes sense my only question would be that we are going to buy far lee B variants than we would have C. Is it worth buying A earlier to take up the slack as Tornado goes out of service and gradually replacing Typhoon with A over a longer period with Typhoon continuing as an air superiority fighter and F35A and B providing strike capability.
    Then over x number of years the number of A variants grows as Typhoon numbers fall, ending up with an entire manned fleet of A and B F35.
29. Mr.fred July 27, 2012 at 9:32 pm

    Typhoon is swing-role. Why would you need to replace it with a strike fighter?
30. Jeremy M H July 27, 2012 at 11:35 pm

    The Typhoon is a pretty limited aircraft in Air to Ground roles even now. It really depends on how much of the Air to Ground program really ends up getting done before you can bet on it being your premier strike fighter. Right now it basically does LGB’s and I think GPS stuff is coming in the future. Standoff weapons are a bit down the road yet. Even then it will never be a first day of war type craft, except as a cruise missile bus (not that Tornado was either anymore).
31. Challenger July 28, 2012 at 12:05 am

    @APATS

    I think what you highlighted earlier is an interesting consideration within this strand of thought.

    If you give the FAA sole access and control to the 48 Lightning B then it means you won’t want to procure any-more and something else needs to slot in-to the RAF inventory to fill the strike role.

    I tend to agree that the best course of action is probably to maximise the use of Typhoon (decent numbers, conformal tanks, an advanced air to ground programme) and then once the RN buy is out of the way look at what comes next.

    Id have no problem with a gradual introduction of Lightning A as a replacement, perhaps a chunk at a time to spread out the cost and provide a smooth changeover.
32. Mr.fred July 28, 2012 at 9:17 am

    Typhoon is as capable A2G as the money for it. It can be an interceptor or a bomb truck while the F35 is primarily a bomb truck.
    I do not subscribe to the logic of going to a one-type fleet for a capability that needs a certain amount of redundancy.
33. WiseApe July 28, 2012 at 9:17 am

    Another Hammond speech which raises more questions than it provides answers (can I nominate this guy for rendition and waterboarding) – what is meant by “split buy,” purely numerical i.e. 48 Bs now, more later; or Bs now, As later? Or 1st buy for RN (their need more urgent), then 2nd buy for RAF, but what type? He gives us so much to talk about, I wonder…has anyone ever seen him in the same room as Think Defence? Unmasked!
34. topman July 28, 2012 at 9:36 am

    @wiseape i would think split numbers. That would make the most of sense since the f35 will be operated by both operated by both the raf and navy. The a version is an option for the future b is the here and now.
35. WiseApe July 28, 2012 at 11:06 am

    It’s being reported this morning that Hammond said the 48 F35Bs were for our aircraft carriers – if true this indicates a RN only buy, but Hammond’s statements in the past have proven to be rather imprecise – I don’t mean untrue, just open to interpretation.
36. Challenger July 28, 2012 at 11:10 am

    So is 48 the definite number for the initial Lightning buy? If that’s the case then I hope for the sake of sense they are primarily used to get carrier ops off the ground.

    Let the RAF concentrate on Typhoon and get a follow up buy of additional jets later on. Keeping a reduced 40-60 force of Tornado until the mid 2020′s would help ease the burden, although I bet they ditch the entire fleet as soon as a sizeable amount of Lightning’s come in-to service.
37. topman July 28, 2012 at 11:22 am

    the number bought might be who will be the operators isn’t.
38. ArmChairCivvy July 28, 2012 at 11:26 am

    It is not that straight forward ” Keeping a reduced 40-60 force of Tornado until the mid 2020′s would help ease the burden, although I bet they ditch the entire fleet as soon as a sizeable amount of Lightning’s come in-to service.”…I mean the ditching part
    - SS will continue to be the main stand off weapon for a while
    - “B”s have a problem bringing any back
    - conformals for Tiffies have not been funded (you may have implicitly thought that this investment is slotted in to save on operating two, rather than three, fast jet types?)
39. Challenger July 28, 2012 at 11:33 am

    Fair enough, yeah I did assume that the money would be slotted in to push through SS and conformal tanks for Typhoon as quickly as possible in order to ditch the third jet type as soon as possible.

    So are you saying that we will in fact see Tornado in service for a bit longer than some have speculated?

    Just read the Hammond statement, exciting stuff!
40. ArmChairCivvy July 28, 2012 at 11:43 am

    @ challenger RE ” did assume that the money would be slotted in to push through SS and conformal tanks for Typhoon as quickly as possible in order to ditch the third jet type as soon as possible.

    So are you saying that we will in fact see Tornado in service for a bit longer than some have speculated?”
    - yeah (1): that would be a reasonable assumption, but no sign of it… is it because the Tiffies are subject to so many upgrade programmes that for us common folks there is no visibility of the pipeline further out?
    - yeah (2): not quite out to 2030 like the Germans, but half way through the ’20s?
41. ArmChairCivvy July 28, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    48 seems to be a magical number in many ways
    - one of our commentators closer to the RAF than the rest of us advised that the upgrades to the “last” 96 Tornados have not started yet (but have been funded at least since two years now)
    - if the 48 Bs are now “hard” information, with hard dates as well, why bother?
    - cut that fleet to half (48) as well and use the rest of the Tornado fleet for training, to spread the airframe hours ( a bit like T1 Tiffies)
42. Simon July 28, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    Is there really any point in conformals for Typhoon now we’re getting Voyager?

    As you say, if SS and Paveway IV are planned then is there really any necessity for much else on Typhoon? Don’t see the point in Brimstone for example.

    All this being… as long as we’ve got a squadron or two of F35B for “specials” and CAS. One squadron for FAA, one for RAF and then double up later?
43. ArmChairCivvy July 28, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    Simon, heard the joke about the stealthy jet that is easy to tell on the radar because of the fleet of the tankers trailing?

    RE ” if SS and Paveway IV are planned then is there really any necessity for much else on Typhoon? Don’t see the point in Brimstone for example.”
    - it is as easy as 1,2,3 (SPEAR)
    - won’t attempt the blocks and capabilities again, but in the end we will have much improved Brimstones (they are good even now)and miniaturised SSs (well, much smaller anyway, may be even fit into a B)

    While all that is happening, PW IV will be excellent for all-weather capability, from medium altitude so that the antiquated AA cannons don’t need to worried about (those buggers have not heard of ECM)