Does anyone agree with these statements?
The Government has squandered the chance of implementing genuine reform by avoiding difficult and politically sensitive decisions; Ghurkhas, Scottish regiments and historic cap badges for example.
Through selective leaking, special pleading and ‘off the record’ briefing the senior leadership of the Army, supplicant journalists and idiotic bloggers breathlessly condemning or commenting on every whiff of a rumour have made the whole process more difficult for those involved than it needed to be.
Making the announcement after Armed Forces Day and the Jubilee celebrations to avoid uncomfortable headlines makes the Government look cowardly, spineless and utterly contemptible.
“the Government look cowardly, spineless and utterly contemptible.”
exactly what we have come to expect from a Government with Ant and Dec at the healm.
I am all for cut’s in the number of the Army. Gurkhas gone should be an easy one, Scottish battalions reduced should be another. It’s not rocket science.
No it’s not. But it’s real life. We can all sit here wishing the world was rational and sterile but it isn’t and we’d all save a lot of nervous energy ranting about things that are timeless. Defence is political, like it or not. Same in every country. At least we dont have it as bad as the US.
I never can remember which one is Ant and which one is Dec.
It is all tinkering. Anything beyond the deterrent, SF, QRA, and systems or formations that support those three areas is of little real use. HMG can’t afford to play world policeman and can’t really defend the country (beyond “glassing” the enemy) so does it matter? It does. But heck what can we do about it?
There is never good time to announce defence cuts. Additionally, the media consistently gets defence wrong so it is always going to look a shambles in the press.
Let us not forget why we are in this mess in first place, Blair and Brown.
Same shit, different different day. More chance of finding a diamond in a toilet than an MP with gumption in the commons.
Bizarre that they can accept all the embarrassment with U-turns over carriers, scrap nimrod et al, yet a bit of bad press from cutting infantry battalions (which Joe Civvy hasn’t heard of) and they won’t do it. Christ, if they had the balls they’d go to a corps of infantry and an armoured corps. Two week of bleating from the sheep and then they’d all forget it while watching “The Voice”, or some other mass-sedative for the unwashed.
It’s been a long morning…
It’s not about Joe Civvy. It’s about the Household Division and the Scottish regiments. Scotland could barely be more political right now. The Household Division effectively run the country after they retire or their families do. Don’t know why we’re keeping the Gurkhas perhaps they are still slightly cheaper somehow. But the Scottish regiment issue isn’t about the Scottish regiments, it’s really about the Union and it doesn’t get more sensitive or difficult than that. I love politicians, never afraid to fuck up rational choices for even a scrap of media attention and political gain.
Would the average person in Scotland care? Having lived here for six years, I’d have to say no. The ones I know certainly wouldn’t, and can’t name their local battalions anyway. Salmond will the bang the drum as he always will but quality of governance, not regimental identity, is the determining issue for most nationalists. It certainly won’t swing the debate.
With Gurkhas, perhaps it’s because the Sultan of Brunei pays for a battalion to be garrisoned there? So effectively we get one battalion for discount? That and the whole Lumley thing.
There’s going to be outrage whichever unit goes. In my view, if you’re going to cause outrage at least make sure you get something in return. Something like a fully-manned infantry battalions with high standards, that don’t rely on commonwealth troops to make the numbers.
Stupid thing is, the whole kybosh in 2008 was about creating a smaller number of large regiments that could be cut or expanded equally precisely do avoid this kind of hand wringing and politics.
From the Garudian:
“The Carter reforms, to be outlined in the statement on Thursday, will split the army into three distinct bodies; reaction forces, adaptable forces, and force troops.
The reaction forces will be the army’s spearhead and will be trained, equipped and prepared for speedy intervention operations anywhere in the world. They will include the Royal Marine Commandos and the Parachute Regiment.
The adaptable forces would take over from the reaction forces, but would take 18 months to prepare for combat. They will be made up of existing full-time regiments and reserves.
Underpinning both will be the “force troops”, or “theatre troops”, which will be made up of all the units required to support the front line – such as the artillery, engineers, signals, intelligence and medical corps.”
So the Reaction forces provide a “re-inforced Battalion sized battlegroup” based on 1 Commando or 1 Parachute regiment, who take the first tour, say 6 months, and are then replaced by other reaction force units for 6 to 9 month tours until the “adaptable force” are ready to take over ?
Mmmmmmm’ that’s gonna be flexible…….
I agree that no one in Scotland outside the SNP would give a sh*t about cutting a battalion or two. Its far more the media that makes a big stink about this. If joe bloggs public cared about defence then we would be spending double what we do now. I doubt if 90% of the great unwashed know what a Gurkha is (probably think it’s one of those annoying green things on the burger at Mc D’s.
Don’t get me wrong I think the Gurkha’s are great but if some one has to go then surely they should be first. The avergae squaddie from the Gurkha’s dropped of back in Nepal will find life relativley easy even with just a partial Army pension where as the average British guy made redundant in this climate will struggle. Gurkha’s are becoming harder to justify as well with the expence and political consideration’s. While Joanna Lumley makes a big deal about the G’s being a historic regiment its not really true. We only had them because there was four battalion’s in the Indian Army in 1947 and no one knew what to do with them. As they were cheap the brass kept them on as a useful gap filler which they remained right up to the point that JLum got them the same rights as everyone else.
Out of interest does anyone know how many times the brigade of Gurkha’s has served in the stan. Are they even on the rotation?
“They will include the Royal Marine Commandos and the Parachute Regiment.”
Nice how the RM has become part of the Army these day’s. Do we think the navy could stop paying for it.
“So the Reaction forces provide a “re-inforced Battalion sized battlegroup” based on 1 Commando or 1 Parachute regiment, who take the first tour, say 6 months, and are then replaced by other reaction force units for 6 to 9 month tours until the “adaptable force” are ready to take over ?”
No all the rumour so far has been 3 heavy brigades in the reaction forces and an air assault brigade and a commando brigade. The 3 reaction brigades on 6 month tours tie nicely into the 18 month generation time for the adaptable force to be used. The other 2 brigades are probably going to be providing a lead commando and the ABTF.
“Out of interest does anyone know how many times the brigade of Gurkha’s has served in the stan. Are they even on the rotation?”
The Bde of Gurkhas is like the Brigade of Guards, its an ADMIN HQ not an OPCON HQ. One Bn is in Brunei and one is part of 16X.
Its been an interesting time. The sense is that it has been delayed and delayed for political reasons.
That said, the actions of the leakers has been reprehensible – if you have access to classified material, or limited distribution letters, you should have the moral strength to not pass it to people who dont need to know.
“Out of interest does anyone know how many times the brigade of Gurkha’s has served in the stan. Are they even on the rotation?”
As Phil said, the Brigade is an admin function. The second battalion deployed in Oct 2003-Apr 2004 and then again in April’05-Oct’05 (back when it was a one battalion job). Then again in Herrick 9 (oct’08-apr-09), Herrick 14 (Apr-Oct’11), and some how they’ve found themselves on the current rotation again (Herrick 16. Possibly just elements).
First Battalion did Herrick’s 7 and 12.
Well as the Scottish are so rich as we keep being told perhaps they should pay for those formations recruited north of the border?
@ Martin re RM
No.
Martin??
“the G’s being a historic regiment its not really true. We only had them because there was four battalion’s in the Indian Army in 1947 and no one knew what to do with them.”
- where do you get this from? And the time line?
- at the time of the Partition in India there were 48 bn’s, and there was a gvmnt to gvmnt agreement on future recruiting (not to be in too much competition; can’t remember what the initial split of the 48 was)
I am surprised…
Phil
Thanks, I had missed that somehow – the Armoured Division being part of the Reaction forces – so your comment makes perfect sense !
I had in fact just read it on Gabriele’s latest posting, which references the newly updated Wikipedia article, and the RUSI speeches:
http://www.google.com/reader/view/#stream/feed%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.com%2Ffeeds%2Fposts%2Fdefault
The cuts news seems to be coming out now…..
The barstewards have done for my county’s regiment.
Quick! To the Daily Telegraph letters page!
Can you lend me some crayons?
Can’t help but notice that Jed’s link contains the sequence…
“http:…2Fukarmedforces…”
Made me smile
@ Martin,
“Nice how the RM has become part of the Army these day’s. Do we think the navy could stop paying for it.”
If you are entering into this value for money malarkey, perhaps the taxpayer could stop paying for sodding useless carriers and spastic little jets. Then paying for the RM is not going to be such a traumatic experience, and the military utility remains high.
Rumour (confirmed tomorrow I suppose) is that both of my old Regiments are getting it in the neck. QRL (i.e. the old 16th/5th and the Boneheads) to merge with 9/12L, and SCOTS DG similarly with QDG, although the latter may have some uncertainty attached, and both may emerge unscathed as light role recce regiments of about 350 soldiers each. I find that latter one slightly hard to believe, but apparently there’s politics afoot, so any nonsense may be possible.
I can’t speak for anyone else’s regiment, but I do know that both the Scarlet Lancers and the SCOTS DGs are proper soldiers, and whatever the result, the boys will turn to the right, salute, and get on with making a success of it. I’m pretty sure that will apply everywhere else as well.
RT
Sad times. My thoughts go out to all my fellow service personnel who will suffer an upheaval in their service and personal lifes with tomorrows announcement.
As a raving civillian, I am not interested in this or that regiment. I can see that cutting the army below 100,000 is a stupid risk at a time of global economic turmoil, where once stable nations can become unstable very quickly.
Sadly our political elite gives money to foreign dictators & conmen (DfID), propping up the dead Euro, spending billions on management consultants & having a John Lewis spending spree on public sector credit cards.
@Wibble
“Let us not forget why we are in this mess in first place, Blair and Brown.”
You can say that again and again and again! And add in Ed Balls and Yvette Cooper, if you like. Bankrupted the bloody country by over a decade of excessive public spending. And now we are to have an Army that is little more than a Corps. Madness! We shall live to regret this.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the Guards tomorrow. What “should happen” if they are being equitably treated along with the rest of the infantry is that they reduce from 5 battalions and three companies to 4 battalions only, with either the Grumbledeers and the Coldcreams getting merged****, or the Micks disbanded and folded into the Welsh and Scots, or some similar variation.
However, what will actually happen is probably going to be very different. There’s normal politics which get involved with county regiments, even now with Scottish independence. Then there’s the top trump all Guards Regiments play called “Royalty”.
I wish the Brigade of Guards well – I’ve got a couple of close mates who were Guardsmen, and from all of my experience the soldiers are damn good, even when acting as the paramilitary wing of the London Tourist Board. There’s no denying though that it is one rule for most of the Army, and another rule entirely for the Guards. Or at least, it always has been. I really have no idea what is going to be announced tomorrow, or if Philip Hammond is indeed the first Defence Minister in history to take on the royal favourites.
**** I do believe that naturally occurring cold nuclear fusion is more likely than this. They fought on opposite sides during the Civil War, and one had to surrender to the other at ENDEX. I can’t remember which way around it was. Anyway, it is like matter and anti-matter – not to be mixed without risk of explosion.
The RRS down to four battalions of ~450 men and one of ~120 men, but absolutely keeping five battalions.
Political nonsense; leave this stuff to the SNP. They can give every platoon of the Scotch Defence Force a different cap badge after independence if it so pleases them.
BB, Scotch is something you drink. Preferably single malt negative ice just a dash of water. My favourite being the Dalmore 18 year old. You of course meant a Scottish Defence Force.
I thought Scotch was something to do with eggs.
A Glenturret 1997 is the smoothest I have found so far. I would define Laphroag as cough medicine.
From The Daily Telegraph, “As disclosed in The Daily Telegraph earlier this week the 2nd Bn The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, one of the best recruited in the Army, will also be cut.”
This is what annoys. I know our local recruiting office does good business. So why is our regiment being cut? (Not RRF BTW)
JG, Gelnturret is a Speyside Malt, the further west you go the higher the peat content tends to get. Laphroaig, is very peaty and also has quite a tang of sea weed it is a malt that divides opinions. Funnily enough it is often the only Malt carried by RN wardrooms through NAAFI. Needless to say this changed very quickly on any Ship I ever served in.
What’s wrong with lager you effete snobs
Hi, APATS. No mistake, I did mean Scotch Defence Force – what else is there worth defending north of the border?
@ All, Christ on a bike, what’s with this tarting up whisky with water or ice (that’s OK in the tropics, so Observer can stand easy). The rest of you, on Show Parade showing two fingers of unadulterated whisky in crystal glasses. Anyone wanting lemonade or ginger in it gets three goes around the assault course for cheekiness.
Anyone not in possession of a good supply of 18 year old malt, may I introduce you to the family business on Islay… Caol Ila, jointly operated with Diageo (not a close branch of the family, but if you all buy a case the shares go up and I get a bigger dividend, so there’s nothing stopping you).
I’m actually quite keen on Ghurkas, because they’re mustard in the jungle, several cousins are Ghurkhas, and Wayne from Brum is shite in the jungle normally. Plus, they come with Joanna Lumley, and she is on my fantasy dinner party invitation twice (Mrs RT has retaliated with Pierce Brosnan twice, but I tell you, I’m putting those Brosnans out of the door at 11pm before the party really gets going).
RT, Sorry but having been born and brought up in a town with 2 malt whisky distilleries I will stand on in my well supported opinion that a dash of water allows the whisky to fully release its flavour.
@x, no that’s scorch
TD, there’s a tank in my laager.
APATS,
is that a “dash ” of water in the sense of waving the whisky glass over a small glass of water? There used to be all sorts of nonsense by some in SCOTS DG about toasting “the King over the water” with some fairly elaborate waving about of glasses, and others very specifically keeping taking their whisky completely neat to indicate that they wanted nothing to do with any Jacobite ruler. All a bit of a giggle in the late 1990s in Fallingbostel I thought.
I used to be a “dash of water in the whisky” man, but over the years have stopped adding the water. The old man used to have soda water with his, but that was back in the swinging sixties and seventies when I was a child, and the world was pretty topsy turvy back then. I recall my grandfather being pretty unimpressed with the idea of a whisky soda when he came to visit and I was allowed to pour him and the old man a drink from the decanter on the sideboard.
I’ve got a mate who makes ice cubes for his whisky from water poured only from bottles of a mineral water that is from a Highland spring (he lives in London, and his local Sainsburys stock it). That’s getting really anal I reckon.
Ah. politicians! More efficient use of reserves is a good idea but most reserve units are simply not at a numerical strength or a level of fittness to be allow them to be deployed into high risk areas.
The ADF has for a while now used willing members of reserve units to form deployment rotations for the policing operations Australia has conducted in places like Timor and the Solomon Islands. That has worked well, but no one has a plan to deploy reserves in any numbers to Afganistan or similar.
Your politicans need to be very careful. Australian politicians had a great idea a decade or so ago. They divided the Army Reserve into high readyness units (Ready Reserves) and General Reserve. Took the wags about 1 minute to rename the General Reserve as the ‘únready reserve’. Wonderful for recruiting and retention.
@ RT re lemonade and other stuff in whiskey
I must confess I am tea total. When I come to power it is all going down the drain………
X,
I’m teetotal with whiskey as well. I had a very strange day once that put me off the stuff forever. We were doing a tour guarding the Maze (boring), and our Regimental Padre got a sponsored visit from Germany. He’d been at an ecclesiastical college somewhere in the province, so knew lots of Paddy Padres. I got the short straw to drive him about for a couple of days. He wanted to go to a place called Corymeela on the north coast, which was a reconciliation centre for families of victims of the Troubles, but before then he wanted to go to M&S in Belfast to do some shopping. We got there, I was picked up by the security guard for my pistol showing over the top of my jeans waistband (embarrassing), and the the priest went to the lingerie section to buy his wife some underwear, and worse to hold up various frilly bras and knickers on the hangers and ask me what I thought (I always think a woman is better off without any underwear at all, but that’s just me). This was about 3 weeks after some scandal in the tabloids about pervert priests. Then we went to Corymeela up near the Giants Causeway, and I had to sit in a circle holding hands with some terrorists wife and all of us singing some Kum Bye Yah type of nonsense and making signs of peace (me still with the Browning in the back of the jeans and very ready to use it at a moment’s notice).
Afterwards, I insisted on going to the Bushmills distillery which was only a few miles away. I bought a bottle from the shop, but when I opened it later to drink I discovered it was about as good as mouthwash. So Whiskey and I don’t mix.
…a year later that Padre handed over to another Padre, and introduced us all to his successor in the Mess at coffee-break. He introduced me as “this is James B******. He’s the Regimental Anti-Christ”. That’s gratitude for you, even if he was smiling and making a joke.
BBC Parl. channel seems to have a live session slot for this:
Around 12.30pm: Philip Hammond, the defence secretary, announces details of the latest army cuts