At Last, the Perfect Picture
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Does it get any better than this, seriously?
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Think Defence hopes to start sensible conversations about UK defence issues, no agenda or no campaign but there might be one or two posts on containers, bridges and mexeflotes!Subscribe
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Yes, if the Bailey bridge watches:-)
Someone check that TD is still breathing.
He is. It’s the heart palpitations that worry the doctors.
He’s feeling light headed, all the blood has rushed to his………
Jed,
Would the answer to that be “his sovereign power-projection capability” ?
Alex,
You are a very, very naughty man and should be ashemed of what you’ve done. Mary Whitehouse told me so. Also, you may have won the Internets for an intederminate length of time with that comment
D’you know, I think the shadows falling from that Mexeflote are wrong. Are you all sure that TD hasn’t photochopped this picture together?
edit: Photoshopped not photochopped (Freudian slip)
TD, “At last, the perfect picture.”
You got me there, was expecting to see Myleen Klass in a basque….
it’s obviously staged. the mexofloat’s on dry land, the engine isn’t connected, and there’s no drops vehicle in sight but you can see why TD feel for it, I think the crane did for him
ISO container, DROPS flat rack, Mexeflote and one of them brand spanking new Terex cranes.
Nurse
Fabulous pictures from COLD RESPONSE in Norway – http://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/3981
Something for the future perhaps
http://navynews.co.uk/assets/upload/files/12030801ax-8.jpg
Funny, that’s the subject of something we’re involved in right now. I don’t agree we need the CB90 and neither does the SO1 teaching us – the CB90 would be great for force protection but you lose the light vehicle lift capability (e.g. LR + 105mm) and the CB90 means the troops have to get wet. Opinion of the day was to improve the existing LCVP’s and LCU’s and rely on Wildcat for force protection. I think I agreed with him!
SI, they could be used as part of a tailored package though, 2 LCVP, 2 CB 90 on the davits or if no heavy equipment to be offloaded then put them in the dock instead of LCUs which unless you have heavy equipment to get off are just 8 kt targets.
Thanks SI, great piccies.
RE “The war games, which sees major participation from…Sweden”
- were the Swedes playing the bad guys, lurking behind the mountains?
RE “be used as part of a tailored package though, 2 LCVP, 2 CB 90 on the davits”
- CB90, with their speed and non-existent draught are a great way of getting e.g. fire control teams and their close protection into the right positions, slightly off the main zone (and the right position will only become clear not just on the day, but on the hour)
Yes, but you are more likely to move high-readiness teams ashore by helo. LCU’s may be slow but they are also the only way of getting anything bigger/heavier than a Land Rover ashore. We need more of those, and faster ones at that, before we go wasting cash on nice to haves like CB90. After that any spare cash needs to go on folding rotors for Chinook so they can be carted down below on OCEAN/LUSTY.
SI,
As for your priorities, I do agree, that would be the order (what happened to the hover-assisted, fast ones; no order… not in the budget?)
- but back to pictures, the helos might have been out of action for days,whereas the CB90s would have got the forward parties inserted, no problem, and under the cvover of the snow flurry
Are you sure the Ocean/ Lusty lifts and hangars can handle the Chinook dimensions? (QEs have that in the desing)
SI, indeed but when was the last time we actually had to put tanks ashore on a beach? We have accepted that the day of the opposed amphib assault is over. The LCU mk11 seems to have slipped below the Force Protection Craft in the budgetary pecking order. At 500k a pop even a reasonably small buy of CB 90 would offer an extra capability. Would an LPD carrying 2 LCVP and 2 CB 90 but retaining the LCU really lose that much?
Am not sure if it would be possible to put CB 90 on vehicle deck but if there was room on vehicle deck then there would be nothing to offload and hence no need for all 4 LCU. Considering we have spent 80 million pound musing over cats and traps surely 10 million for 12 CB 90 would be money well spent?
Believe Ocean can take Chins with the rotors removed, gather this is essential for major maintenance when deployed.
Nobody mentioned tanks. Vikings, 105 light guns, fuel trucks, HQ vehicles, everything else that needs to go ashore goes in the LCU’s. VP’s are tiny by comparison. If you can’t see to fly then it is highly unlikely we would assault at all. Consider that if we deployed all reasonably available amphib assets at once, that is OCEAN, ALBION and 2 Bays, that’s a maximum of 4 LCU’s which is not a lot of combat lift. You need the rotary lift to make it up to a significant package. And for FP a CB90 might be fast but it only carries 1 weapon where an ORC(FSV) carries three. ORC is also smaller and much cheaper whilst carrying similar armour.
All of this is current thinking and doctrine BTW, not SI.com!
It isn’t just about tanks it is about lorries, earthmoving equipment, aid, etc. etc.
And amphibious warfare today is about manoeuvre landing where the enemy isn’t. Sure there is anniversary of some such landing coming up…….
Hi APATS,
Where has that been stated ” We have accepted that the day of the opposed amphib assault is over”?
- I was just reading the Maritime Doctrine doc: 2 coy initial wave, one by LCP/LCU and the other by helo. The whole force (1800+) ashore within 6 hrs.
- a very light force; if there is any serious opposition (or some such arrives early on) 5 Challies will make a big difference – I got that 5 from somewhere (factual), but these linear lane meters beat me
I still agree with you that if we have QE/ Ocean/ Lusty + 1-2 Albion + 2-3 Bays, 12 of the CBs would be a good number to have; looking at this fleet, at least 6 of them on davits, with it
SI, the CB 90 however is the leader in an established procurement program for a force protection craft. It can carry 3 12.7mm machine guns and can mount hellfire. ORC is a good piece of kit but is a size class below CB 90. The last time we actually deployed an LPD on Ops when Bulwark deployed to the GOA and NAG in 2006, the ability to deploy mini groups centered around an LCU and LCVP with Rhibs would have been even more effective with an CB 90. The 2 Bays can also take 1 LCU.
X I agree and am arguing that for a relatively small capital outlay we can deploy a tailored boat package suitable to the Ops being conducted.
Hi SI, I agree all of this
” OCEAN, ALBION and 2 Bays, that’s a maximum of 4 LCU’s which is not a lot of combat lift. You need the rotary lift to make it up to a significant package. And for FP a CB90 might be fast but it only carries 1 weapon where an ORC(FSV) carries three. ORC is also smaller and much cheaper whilst carrying similar armour.”
- every time I mentioned CB, I also mentioned davits… so where is the trade-off?
- putting ORC and CB in the same category, the land effects are two things (taken together): what can be landed and what weapons onboard. Would you agree that CB lands much more, and even if it has only a .50 cal (one) that is just to cover the ‘dismounts’ going in and coming out? If you really want ‘land effects’ you’ll take the one with AMOS or Hellfire on it (or the pair of them!)
ACC I am not sure where it is written but it is certainly accepted by those in service. An opposed beach landing now, given the small numbers we could bring to bear and the advent of ATGW and HMG would be worse than suicide.
I correct my last post ref op deployments of LPDs of course we had cougar 2011 with Albion.
Nobody but nobody thinks opposed beach landings are a good idea. Not even the US would consider it against anything but the lightest sprinkling of opposition. Against something like the Omaha defences, even today, manned by a determined enemy, most of your blokes are never going to get off the beach.
Phil, you are being generous we would be lucky to get onto the beach.
RE “An opposed beach landing now, given the small numbers we could bring to bear and the advent of ATGW and HMG”
- I was talking about picking the right spot, the first two coys secure it, everything gets onshore in the six hours, all as per planning assumptions… but then a dust clouds starts to form (the “Indians” have arrived, perhaps not in MBTs but in something armoured and in much greater numbers than the landed force)
We can always say “air” as the answer, but let’s consider the relative value of landed assets vs. the capacity (and the mix) of ship-to-shore connectors, because it is more the question of which ones you have available and their numbers, as opposed to how many lane meters altogether (bring in the Points…and that part will have been solved)
ACC well you have has a massive intel failure but not sure how my plans would have changed the correlation of forces. As I mentioned a tailored, boat group so in this occasion with max effort landing I would have swapped out 2 LCVP for 2 CB 90 on davits maintaining max LCU availability whilst providing improved FP against FIAC.
Hi APATS,
Yeap, good plan “swapped out 2 LCVP for 2 CB 90 on davits maintaining max LCU availability ”
RE “well you have has a massive intel failure”, yeap for that, too
- isn’t it nasty if the other side has wheeled armour, with transit speeds 60-100 km/h; surprises are quaranteed (again, not saying anything about air as in ISTAR or battlefield interdiction)
But the 5 Chally2s would be the cats let loose in…
ACC even before you got the Ch2 you would hope that we have observed the principles of Ship To Objectibe Manouvre (STOM) and some sneaky types were well advanced of the beach to be able to utilise choke points, bridges, mines and ambushes etc.
Definitely, APATS.
Stealth helicopters still mainly exist as-bring-the tail-to-leave-behind-as-evidence (when you first burn down a perfectly good Blackhawk)…
so back to all the tried means of getting there ahead of time and quietly