Think Defence hopes to start sensible conversations about UK defence issues, no agenda or no campaign but there might be one or two posts on containers, bridges and mexeflotes!
maybe that explains the article i posted a few days back detailing how, in several areas, this second anglo-french agreement appears to backtrack on the depth of collabiration implicit in the first……….?
Think Defence
Jedi, I wonder if this is a unilateral French move or something tacitly sanctioned by the UK. Don’t forget, the French Government has shares in both Dassault AND Eads so if the BAE/Dassault deal hoovers up all the European UAV money it leads the Talarion, and EADS, in a quandry. If EADS is in a quandry, so is the French government
Wheels within wheels as usual
solomon
ya know i’m accused of being right wing (and i am) but i seriously believe that all this cooperation on aerospace projects has set back the aviation industry in Britain like nothing else.
i understand the furor with the F-35. it is in reality a US project with allied buy in. i think that instead of all these joint (extremely joint projects) the UK should focus on its own UAV primarily and once its up and running, then shop it out to allies. you have the perfect mechanism in house. BAE is doing some fabulous work across the defense industry. its protectionist but i would scrap ASCOD and buy there offering. and thats just a start.
jedibeeftrix
Unsure, but i was always a little skeptical of the wider ambitions to merge high-end UCAV programs inferred by some people.
I’m sure the joint investment in MALES will go ahead, as it represents risk-reduction work on other national development programs such as Taranis for Britain/BAE and Neuron(?) for France/Dassault.
Mark
I have expressed my doubts about this for sometime. The money apparently allocated to this pays lip service to it and would require to be increased by an order of magnitude to believe there serious. The Franco German pact is hard to break. If you want a multi nation program of anything to work them I’m afraid the f35 program structure is the only way to go. A single design authority who makes the a plane and partners build major sub assemblies. This in the military sense could only be achieved using the us as they are the only ones who could buy them in large enough order to stop the infighting that would ensue.
Either that or get airbus to build it with NO politics influenced decisions imposed on them.
We could design or own vehicle and buy common systems but that would be expensive as we will never buy them in enough volume and by volume I mean over 200 a/c. If it was me I’d be taking the money go to general atomics and ask them to open a major sub assembly plant in the uk and by reaper and it’s follow ons.
Paul R
As I said in the open thread.
It should be just the UK and France. We should build it and set it up to our needs. Then other countries can buy it and then do what they like.
I’m perfectly happy for other countries in Europe to access the technology and do bits to it that they like, but letting them in at the first sight will just complicate matters overall.
I think you could say Watchkeeper is a good example of what we should generally be doing. Elbit did the Hermes 450, which the Watchkeeper is derived from, then I think Elbit and Thales joined up to do.
Now France are looking at the Watchkeeper.
With UAV like Watchkeeper costing under 20million each, it becomes affordable to tailor the platform to your needs, be it technical or political.
More people = arguments about workshare, who does what, what it should do, when it should do it.
Thanks, erebus, that’s why I love this “news service”
- my wired dangerroom counter says 3 new items and it is already here, as an alert
But, in Austin, Texas, they don’t know that the two references at the end of this
“Dassault, for the record, has stated that the briefcase was not carrying “sensitive documents” and the shenanigans were “probably a random theft.” But according to La Parisien, the papers were marked: “Defence — Confidential.” The drone in question was likely a planned multi-million-pound medium-altitude, long-distance drone announced in partnership last year between British defense firm BAE Systems and Dassault. The reconnaissance version of the drone is expected to hit the skies in 2020, with an armed variant following in 2030″
are totally different aircraft
Pete Arundel
“BAE is doing some fabulous work across the defense industry. its protectionist but i would scrap ASCOD and buy there offering. and thats just a start.”
Of course Swedish is more British than Austrian or Spanish!
The “Vikings” that ruled large parts of northern Britain at times were Norse, Swede and Dane.
As far as i know the RN and a big storm prevented the Armada from making us Spanish, and I am pretty sure we have never been invaded by, or otherwise assimilated into Austrian culture…….
Martin
This sounds like another looming disaster. I did not mind having the French on board. As they have shown they can help sell aircraft abroad. It is also unlikely anyone I’n the eu would try this type of program without the uk or France on board meaning we would have a eu monopoly. German and Italy bring nothing to the party. This project may be the most significant for British industry since the comet and I think we need to be prepared to tell the French it’s us or them. Of they don’t like it we will go alone.
Observer
“If you want a multi nation program of anything to work them I’m afraid the f35 program structure is the only way to go”
It works? When?
SteveD
This sounds an awful lot like Italian and germane industry getting worried about being left behind.
maybe that explains the article i posted a few days back detailing how, in several areas, this second anglo-french agreement appears to backtrack on the depth of collabiration implicit in the first……….?
Jedi, I wonder if this is a unilateral French move or something tacitly sanctioned by the UK. Don’t forget, the French Government has shares in both Dassault AND Eads so if the BAE/Dassault deal hoovers up all the European UAV money it leads the Talarion, and EADS, in a quandry. If EADS is in a quandry, so is the French government
Wheels within wheels as usual
ya know i’m accused of being right wing (and i am) but i seriously believe that all this cooperation on aerospace projects has set back the aviation industry in Britain like nothing else.
i understand the furor with the F-35. it is in reality a US project with allied buy in. i think that instead of all these joint (extremely joint projects) the UK should focus on its own UAV primarily and once its up and running, then shop it out to allies. you have the perfect mechanism in house. BAE is doing some fabulous work across the defense industry. its protectionist but i would scrap ASCOD and buy there offering. and thats just a start.
Unsure, but i was always a little skeptical of the wider ambitions to merge high-end UCAV programs inferred by some people.
Here is the link, make of it what you will:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/132885/anglo_french-uav-plan-long-on-ambition%2C-short-on-funds.html
I’m sure the joint investment in MALES will go ahead, as it represents risk-reduction work on other national development programs such as Taranis for Britain/BAE and Neuron(?) for France/Dassault.
I have expressed my doubts about this for sometime. The money apparently allocated to this pays lip service to it and would require to be increased by an order of magnitude to believe there serious. The Franco German pact is hard to break. If you want a multi nation program of anything to work them I’m afraid the f35 program structure is the only way to go. A single design authority who makes the a plane and partners build major sub assemblies. This in the military sense could only be achieved using the us as they are the only ones who could buy them in large enough order to stop the infighting that would ensue.
Either that or get airbus to build it with NO politics influenced decisions imposed on them.
We could design or own vehicle and buy common systems but that would be expensive as we will never buy them in enough volume and by volume I mean over 200 a/c. If it was me I’d be taking the money go to general atomics and ask them to open a major sub assembly plant in the uk and by reaper and it’s follow ons.
As I said in the open thread.
It should be just the UK and France. We should build it and set it up to our needs. Then other countries can buy it and then do what they like.
I’m perfectly happy for other countries in Europe to access the technology and do bits to it that they like, but letting them in at the first sight will just complicate matters overall.
I think you could say Watchkeeper is a good example of what we should generally be doing. Elbit did the Hermes 450, which the Watchkeeper is derived from, then I think Elbit and Thales joined up to do.
Now France are looking at the Watchkeeper.
With UAV like Watchkeeper costing under 20million each, it becomes affordable to tailor the platform to your needs, be it technical or political.
More people = arguments about workshare, who does what, what it should do, when it should do it.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/02/french-drone-docs-stolen/
Thanks, erebus, that’s why I love this “news service”
- my wired dangerroom counter says 3 new items and it is already here, as an alert
But, in Austin, Texas, they don’t know that the two references at the end of this
“Dassault, for the record, has stated that the briefcase was not carrying “sensitive documents” and the shenanigans were “probably a random theft.” But according to La Parisien, the papers were marked: “Defence — Confidential.” The drone in question was likely a planned multi-million-pound medium-altitude, long-distance drone announced in partnership last year between British defense firm BAE Systems and Dassault. The reconnaissance version of the drone is expected to hit the skies in 2020, with an armed variant following in 2030″
are totally different aircraft
“BAE is doing some fabulous work across the defense industry. its protectionist but i would scrap ASCOD and buy there offering. and thats just a start.”
Is Swedish more British than Austrian or Spanish?
i don’t follow.
CV90 is a Swedish vehicle.
You already learnt what UK had to know ….
Sacré Bleu! French Drone Documents Stolen From Paris Train Station
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/02/french-drone-docs-stolen/
Of course Swedish is more British than Austrian or Spanish!
The “Vikings” that ruled large parts of northern Britain at times were Norse, Swede and Dane.
As far as i know the RN and a big storm prevented the Armada from making us Spanish, and I am pretty sure we have never been invaded by, or otherwise assimilated into Austrian culture…….
This sounds like another looming disaster. I did not mind having the French on board. As they have shown they can help sell aircraft abroad. It is also unlikely anyone I’n the eu would try this type of program without the uk or France on board meaning we would have a eu monopoly. German and Italy bring nothing to the party. This project may be the most significant for British industry since the comet and I think we need to be prepared to tell the French it’s us or them. Of they don’t like it we will go alone.
“If you want a multi nation program of anything to work them I’m afraid the f35 program structure is the only way to go”
It works? When?
This sounds an awful lot like Italian and germane industry getting worried about being left behind.