Will the famous black hole in the MoD budget ever be filled?
It strikes me that it has become the universal excuse for anything to do with reducing defence funding, blaming the previous government is an all too easy excuse.
The number is repeatedly said to be £38 billion but the government has never published the make up of this number, is it a mixture of capital and support costs, if so what is the split, over what period is it measured and what is the current status are many interesting questions that don’t seem to attract any answers.
The latest news from the Telegraph indicates that the scale of the black hole was underestimated (the gift that keeps on giving) and more cuts will be needed. The figure reported was an additional £2 billion to be found in Planning Round 12 (PR12)
One might expect to see the usual round of leaks and speculation in the next few months and again, nothing seems to be off the table except the Red Arrows, public duties and a certain large ship currently being built somewhere up North.
Rumours persist about greater reductions in MoD civil servants, Army manpower and FRES, FRES in particular has been absent from recent communications from the MoD, unlike the Warrior upgrades. BAE of course got their digs in early with an announcement about reviewing the Portsmouth shipbuilding facility, convenient timing given the stage that the Type 26 frigate is nearing announcement time and PR12.
The games they all play
If we buy the Red Arrows some Goshawks they could tour the world in CVF. And we could send all the bands too. And the Queen’s Colour Squadron. And the White Helmets. Wow…..
X, good grief. That really would be an expensive marketing exercise, more so than the original HMY which very oddly found itself otherwise engaged when we last needed a hospital ship in 1982.
I’m not sure you want the Queen’s Colour Squadron on board though, not if you want some impressive drill. It’s hard not to stop giggling at the ridiculous 1919-demob quasi civilian uniform of the RAF Regiment or the drum majorette routines which have no basis in the original battlefield drill. RAF playing silly buggers yet again, with hotel bills to match. All fur coat and no knickers designed to impress tourists.
I’m outer Portsmouth, you can guess what part of me is saying, even why I sort of come into existence.
But I’m not surprised about BAE or the government, any excuse for the government to cut more, and more for BAE to scare the public and government.
Closing any more shipyards would pretty much signal that any UK ship type built would probably struggle to even approach a double digit number. It would be pretty poor for a shipyard to shut down and then the others to make type 26, it would ask either hese questions.
a) If we can build type 26 with 2 yards, then how come we had 6 type 45 (although numbers cut) and 2 aircraft carriers with 3 yards? And what affect would it have on delivery? are we at the stage of we’re struggling to meet demand, are we even going to see costs go down?
OR
b) We think type 26 will be reduced.
The future for the country doesn’t bode well.
The government and polos talk of we must build more and export. Yet are quite happy to see parts of industry decline and are so short sighted. You wonder why parts of the youth are fed up, they are being told “Sorry you’re not allowed to assemble aircraft, cars or boats, you’ve got to go and work in Tesco, Asda and McDonalds”. Instead of earning a good wage building something quite high value and meaningful.
They government is pleased when the supermarkets and fast food chains create jobs, whom for me the jobs aren’t that greatly paid and in the long term aren’t really great. Yeah jobs are jobs, but it takes the piss when you think long term.
They say we need to rebalance, but we aren’t you can’t rebalance when the people retiring are the ones with the skills, yet at the bottom end the people aren’t even in the industry, be it costs and lack of skills, investment. In basic terms when that one person retires, who have we got at the bottom end starting?
The same could be said for the Civil Service at the MOD! The same could be for any service.
The Government is always accountable for the skills shortage, they’re responsible for keeping industries in check, ie making sure its healthy, be it manufacturing or services. The current lot doesn’t sound too good at doing that!
Oh yeah I agree, where are the figures, the MOD is probably so awful at managing it probably misplaced a decimal point.
@ James
What if I have them restyled as “The Flaming Bayonets”?
Drill is drill James, when I went through Darmouth we used to get depressed by geting 4 or 5 from the parade staff when we thought we had done really well. So after a new entry term where our best mark was 7 and even the WO GI said we were good we decided to find the marking scheme, a quick break in established that in order to obtain a 10 your drill had to be better than the guards were at trooping the colour, needless to say we were much happier with our 7 afterwards.
@ Paul R re T26
Honestly I don’t see one being built. I would bet the Think Defence tea and biscuit float on T23s having to go on for another 5 to 10 years or some bodged T45s sans SeaViper (2 or 3) being built in Scotland as a sop for this independence business.
A fill in job for Portsmouth, perhaps.
What about a seventh T45, but with a stretched centre section, a multi use space for conference/exhibition or dining, with VIP cabins above. Could serve as Destroyer/Royal Yacht/Venue for peace talks/promotion of British goods/defence diplomacy. Could even bring back a famous RN name HMS Diana. Given its multi role function, the overfunded DfID should pay for it.
John H re HMS Diana
Really? Go away and think why that won’t float… You do know who has to sign off on ship’s names don’t you?
No it won’t be anything special. It will be about keeping Scottish welders in work with a minimum spend on sensors and weapons.
x whilst I fully expect T26 to arrive in some form the T23 is a viable frigate for years to come. The only problem would be hull wear. A fully updated t23 with 2087, Merlins, ARTISAN, CAAMS and DNA 2 will be the best multi purpose FF around.
Its a pity we couldnt just take a Type 23, take out all the kit and pour it into a new hull
I believe thats what is called a Type 26
@ X
You leave the Tea and Biscuit float alone mate. If you think we’re going without Rich Tea for a month because you fancy a gamble then you’e got another thing coming.
The buying-Goshawks-for-the-Red-Arrows comment did genuinely make me laugh out loud though.
@ APATS
Well I hope you are right. Personally this talk about Portsmouth has got me wondering.
FREMM built in Korea anybody?
I read in the RAF Yearbook that the RAF have around 170 musicians!! Apologies for the language but WTF?!
The RAF isnt even old enough to have a tradition of ‘needing’ bands like an olden days marching army. If musicians are to be subsidised it shouldnt be coming out of the defence budget.
Whats all this about a Tea and Biscuit float? Why wasn’t I informed?
@ Chris B re Rich Tea
Um. I am sorry but the Rich Tea and Digestive budgets have been merged. The Tea Float Committee saw too much commonality between them; both round, 3in diameter, brown, 1/8 inch thick etc. We have ring fenced the Chocolate Hob Nobs; we didn’t realise the site had so many officers posting….
The amount of personnel all three services, but to be fair, mostly the Army, have devoted to public duties, bands and other such stuff would have you gasping for air.
X
She has not survived this long, without knowing when to bite her lip & go along with public opinion.
… any gingernuts?
@ Gareth J
Didn’t you get the HQTM?
@ Chris M
Actually I like military music and think the various bands do a good job that isn’t widely appreciated outside. Again it is a culture thing.
Wasn’t there a list on here? I think the army had something like 1000 musicians.
@ TD
Have you done a break down on public duties?
I know the Guards have extra what appear to be semi-independent companies as a sort of extra man power pool for public duties. I think my little Pen & Sword book said something like 3 battalions worth or so. That can’t be right? Surely I miss read it?
“The figure reported was an additional £2 billion to be found in Planning Round 12 (PR12)”
As ever, when talking of SDSR inspired “cuts”, I ask whether these cuts are [new] cuts in budget or [pending] cuts in capability necessary to meet that budget (given that we all know that SDSR was the start of the journey)?
@X What is the good job that the military bands do? Is that goodness something the defence budget should be paying for?
The London public duties should be provided by the MPGS or suchlike, reverse takeover into a Guards regiment for some history, and manned by ex-soldiers who will take less pay for non-deployment.
Regarding possible MoD civil service cuts: I know MoD comes in for a lot of stick, but 80,000 to 45,000 seems like it’ll have a fairly massive impact on things. There seems to be a desire to just go with accountants and lawyers to let contracts to Industry – which is pretty dangerous. Might as well just have a direct money pipeline into Industry instead.
@ Chris M
So everything from supporting ceremonial to moral to PR isn’t worth?
As for ex-soldiers doing public ceremonial? Standing stock still for a few hours is a young man’s game.
(PS: I do think the Guards should be pulled from infantry roulement and trained for a Gendarmerie-anti-terror-UK civil power support role. But that is another discussion.)
The house hold cavalry is an extended batalion, from my time as their affiliations officer on HMS WESTMINTER. They run at battalion strength of about 1100. 350 to 400 on ceremonials the rest on active service. In my experience, good blokes though somewhat detached from reality, though when I asked them for an input to my frigates cocktail party outboard Belfast I had to talk them down to 2 mounted outboard Belfast 2 dismounted on gagnway and the whole band on flight deck. if I had let them organise we would have been shutting roads!
Chocolate Hob Nobs? I hate chocolate Hob Nobs. Can’t we just cut a slice out of the graphic design budget?
@ X, re “Flaming Bayonets”
that’s moving in the opposite direction to being able to take the RAF Regiment seriously.
Honestly, they are good for the boring bits of service life like guarding an airbase (necessary task). But don’t anyone try to conflate them with a sense of tradition (lightly ingrained habit is where they are now), of having anything other than a drum majorette’s sense of purpose or style, or indeed any militarily useful role that involves any actual fighting.
We had attached to us 1 Sqn RAF Regt in Bosnia in a light infantry role, precisely what we needed. All the gear, but no bloody idea. In comparison to proper fighting soldiers, they were completely f**king useless. And yet, they were sent by the RAF to be proper fighting soldiers for a proper 6-month tour. All para-qualified, except most of them were seriously unfit and had the tactical acumen of a stunned slug. I suspect the RAF-only para-qualification had been, shall we say “turning a blind eye” to some serious individual and systemic weaknesses. And apparently, they thought they were the best of the RAF Regiment (they claimed).
Christ knows what sort of person joins the RAF Regiment as opposed to a proper fighting force, but I would trust that sort of person about as far as I could throw them.
Ah the RAF Regiment, a topic to get even the quietest in the army frothing at the mouth.
2 James, we can get rid of RAF Reg but you noted that their primary role is required so the army will have to take it on.
@ Chris B
We will have to cut something out of Graphics and look to going from Waitrose to Sainsbury tea. Why? Well obviously if Gareth didn’t know about the Tea Float we need to keep or even expand PR. As for the Chocolate Hob Nob’s well now we have all these refined commissioned palates about the blog well we have to maintain some standards.
@ APATS
Yes there is the mounted regiment isn’t there?
BTW “in a ship” not “on a ship”
@ James re RAF Reg
No!!!!!!!!!!!! I was solely concentrating on all those extra things the forces do like bands, etc. that get mentioned when gaps in defence spending. I don’t mind land vs sea based aeroplane discussions. But for the love of all that is Holy I don’t want to start one of those “Why do we still have the RAF Reg?” discussions. TD will have me banned……
@ APATS,
no keep them on, but restrict them to guarding airbases. Don’t let them get ideas about doing infantry work.
What the RAF Regiment should do is a bit of a deployable MoD Plod role, with sometimes some gucci weapons. What they shouldn’t do is to try to think they are something they are not.
Bad enough being in the RAF Regiment, but then being posted to the Queen’s Colour Squadron would be too shaming. Little prancing majorettes, emasculated infantry wannabes who can’t even make that work, so they spend their time inventing gay little Red Arrows type formations on the tarmac. Total waste of taxpayers’ money.
‘“Why do we still have the RAF Reg?” discussions. ‘
Pop over to arrse, they seem perennially obsessed with them.
There’s some sangers in Bastion where nothing happens with RAF Regt written all over them.
Already there I think phil, took over from the army company out there in 2010 I think.
again, not perfect, but…..
These are straight up honestish cancellations, rather than delays.
Question
Kevan Jones (North Durham, Labour)
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many armed forces personnel were deployed on ceremonial duties(a) in London and (b) around the world in 2011.
Answer
Andrew Robathan (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Defence Personnel, Welfare and Veterans), Defence; South Leicestershire, Conservative)
During 2011 there were some 296 personnel involved on a daily basis on routine public duties primarily in London. In addition to this, there were a number of other ceremonial events throughout 2011 including the Queen’s birthday parade, the royal wedding, the Cenotaph remembrance parade and other events across the UK and the world, which would have involved these and other armed forces personnel drawn from units across the three services.
Hmmm, is it because they know the forces won’t trundle down a major london with placards claiming destitution if cuts happpen (pick any job, anything represented by UNITE would be a good starting point).
No tommy,biggles and jolly jack just touch their toes and take it, bloody easy target.
As to shipyards, british worker, top whack wages with host of EU regulations ensuring maternity/paternity leave, max hours,double time paid hols, union stalins etc etc or some bloke in a far east shipyard for tuppence a week, eat a handful of gravel, very low chance of strike delaying ship and max profit. Good luck keeping any manufacturing here, sad and yet true.
So that’s like 3 companies worth approximately.
RE: RAF regiment. What about giving them an offensive role which mirrors their defensive one?
http://www.g2mil.com/aircommandos.htm
They can even train amongst themselves; knowing how an airfield/base can be attacked would improve their defence?
Question
Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex, Conservative)
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the (a) service, (b) location and (c) strength is of each military band.
Answer
Peter Luff (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Defence Equipment, Support and Technology), Defence; Mid Worcestershire, Conservative)
holding answer12 October 2011
The following table lists the number of bands by service, location and strength:
Band name Location Strength
Naval Service
The Band HM Royal Marines Portsmouth 66
The Band HM Royal Marines Plymouth 56
The Band HM Royal Marines Collingwood 57
The Band HM Royal Marines Commando Training Centre Lympstone 50
The. Band HM Royal Marines Scotland Rosyth 49
Army
The Band of the Life Guards London 31
The Band of the Blues and Royals Windsor 29
The Heavy Cavalry and Cambrai Band Catterick 29
The Light Cavalry Band Bovington 29
The Royal Artillery Band Woolwich 42
The Band of the Corps of Royal Engineers Chatham 27
The Band of the Royal Corps of Signals Blandford Forum 27
Band of the Grenadier Guards London 40
Band of the Coldstream Guards London 40
Band of the Scots Guards London 38
Band of the Irish Guards London 37
Band of the Welsh Guards London 40
The Band of the Royal Regiment of Scotland Edinburgh 29
The Minden Band of the Queen’s Division Cambridge 27
The Band of the King’s Division Preston 30
The Band of the Prince of Wales’ Division Tidworth 28
The Band and Bugles of the Rifles Winchester 29
The Band of the Parachute Regiment Colchester 28
The Band of the Brigade of Gurkhas Shorncliffe (1)—
The Band of the Army Air Corps Middle Wallop 28
The Band of the Royal Logistic Corps Camberley 28
The Band of the Corps of Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers Arborfield 28
The Band of the Adjutant General’s Corps Worthy Down 26
The Army Big Band Twickenham (2)33
British Army Brass Band Twickenham (2)35
Corps of Army Music Sinfonietta Twickenham (2)24
The Honourable Artillery Company Band London (2)14
The Band of the Royal Yeomanry London (2)27
The Lancashire Artillery Volunteers Band Bolton (2)27
The Nottinghamshire Band of the Royal Engineers Nottingham (2)31
The Royal Signals (Northern) Band Darlington (2)29
The Lowland Band of the Royal Regiment of Scotland Edinburgh (2)30
The Highland Band of the Royal Regiment of Scotland Perth (2)29
The Band of the Princess of Wales’ Royal Regiment Canterbury (2)33
The Band of the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment Liverpool (2)19
The Band of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers Newcastle-upon-Tyne (2)21
The Band of the Royal Anglian Regiment Peterborough (2)19
The Band of the Yorkshire Regiment Huddersfield (2)21
The Band of the Mercian Regiment Wolverhampton (2)34
The Band of the Royal Welsh Gwent (2)36
The Salamanca Band of the Rifles Exeter (2)22
The Waterloo Band of the Rifles Abingdon (2)30
The Band of the Royal Irish Regiment Holyrood (3)1
(2)24
The Band of the 150th (Yorkshire) Transport Regiment, Royal Logistic Corps (Volunteers) Kingston Upon Hull (2)31
Army Medical Services Band Camberley 29
The Volunteer Band of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment Gibraltar 29
Royal Air Force
The Central Band of the Royal Air Force Northolt 81
The Band of the Royal Air Force College Sleaford 37
The Band of the Royal Air Force Regiment Sleaford 39
(1) One UKTAP plus 34 Gurkhas. (2) Territorial Army. (3 )UKTAP denotes United Kingdom Trained Adult Personnel.
If the scots went independent would we not have overseas ship yards anyway
They already are air commandos. They do the course after their Chip on Both Shoulders course.
@ Mark re Scottish yards
Hulls built in Romania. Fitted out in Pompey. Save zillions.
Are all those bands full time? That is one hell of a lot of people if they are not doing anything useful….
@ Phil
You get an extra Chocolate Hob Nob if you work the word Gucci into your next post re RAF Reg
Looking at that list, that must be a huge amount of parades and the such.
@ x
‘You get an extra Chocolate Hob Nob if you work the word Gucci into your next post re RAF Reg’
Ahh Raf Reg buzz word bingo, have we had EFI or big three yet ?