Much wailing and gnashing of teeth today about the ‘win’ of the Dassault Rafale in the Indian Multi Role Combat Aircraft competition. In all fairness, one can see the advantages of the Rafale for India, they have a fleet of Mirages and a long track record of working with the French, plus of course it is obvious that the technical specification has been met.
When one digs into the detail of the announcement it would seem that it majors on price, the Rafale package coming in cheaper. Now, given the track record of the Rafale and its development background it would seem on face value to be quite surprising, I haven’t seen any allegations of subsidy but no doubt someone will.
Alternatively, it could simply be a bargaining device to get the price of the Typhoon down.
From the BBC
Dassault Aviation will now enter final negotiations before any deal is signed for supplying India with 126 Rafale aircraft. Officials at the British High Commission in Delhi said they were disappointed with the decision and would now study the details. A statement read: “It was expressly said this was about the cost of the contract, not a reflection on the health of bilateral relations between India and the countries.” The officials said they “genuinely believed the [Eurofighter] Typhoon offered the best capability now and in the future”. They also said it was “not beyond imagination” that India might decide the Rafale was not the right option as it continued the process.
Who knows where this will end but I don’t think the rotund lady has sung just yet.
I think you’re dead right TD: this is a “reduce your prices, those frogs are really desperate so you’ll have to hustle” manoeuvre
The rationale for spending a hefty amount on the Mirage upgrades (announced very recently) was very much resting on getting the MICA into service, and now again with Rafales (the variety has to stop somewhere with lots of Russian missiles and Russian & Israeli avionics in service)
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2012/01/mmrca-india-order-490-mica.html
Is there a difference between the Rafale types or are all carrier capable? If not perhaps the Indians are thinking of cross-service capabilities?
Indians might be operating a catobar aircraft carrier in future. Get the CVF salesmen ready.
@ Gareth, there is a difference the Rafale M is the carrier version.
The French are so desperate for a sale and the Indians so open about playing off competitors I strongly suspect that the Rafale deal is linked to a massive price subsidy. The French taxpayer is almost certainly ‘giving’ a significant number of very expensive aircraft to the Indians in order to ensure they take up a licence. Given that the Indians are quite unscrupulous about ripping off foreign technology for their own economic development the failure to share Typhoon with them may actually be quite a good thing in strategic terms. Of course the Rafale’s strike and potential carrier capabilities may also have helped swing the balance.
I think this one is done for typhoon. The Indians originally wanted mirage 2000 but delayed so long that was not an option. I think that the rafale is prob a better strike a/c than typhoon and typhoon is probably a better fighter a/c than rafale and that may have been a factor. One interesting aside just prior to Christmas Lockheed briefed the Indians on a possible sale of f35 now I don’t think it’s totally beyond the bounds of possibility that they don’t successfully come to a conclusion on this deal and reopen the contest with the Americans offering f35 instead of f16 or hornet at which point all bets are off.
Unless the Saudis order more a/c I can’t see typhoon production lasting much beyond 2017 in the uk.
Hi Mark,
Gets really interesting around that time “Unless the Saudis order more a/c I can’t see typhoon production lasting much beyond 2017 in the uk.” as
- Hornet line is likely to close before then, around 2015
- only if Rafale wins Brazil,too, will they be going for much longer
…so the last “man” standing outside the USA might be the budget Gripen (NG being about 50% more expensive than the base model)
Like I’ve said before, in the particular case of India, their
- MIG21 fleet has been stretched as far as it can go
- the domestic high end and budget low-end fighters are too far from mass production to make up the numbers
- to have some sort of say about air superiority (the high-end SUs are limited in numbers, even though they match what China currently has in the way of copies of the same)in the intervening period, I think the mixed Mirage & Rafale fleet, both with MICAs, will match the bill
Acc
Very much agreed presently hornet will deliver its last a/c in October 2014 which prob means long leads closing this year or very early next year. A possible further aus or brazil ( though rafale is more likely) may extend that. Uk miltary aviation manufacture is pretty much totally tied to f35.
The Indian MRCA already has the status OF ‘Long running saga’. Having already excluded the F-35, if India really has selected the Rafale it is hard to see them reopening the competion at this point. If memory serves this last stage was described as a BAFO(Best and Final offer). In that case the Rafale team would really have to stuff up to fail at this point.
Where exactly will that leave you lot? BAe might sell a dozen or two Eurofighter to gulf states which would presumably would end up coming from RAF Tranche 3a slots. All of which suggests you will end up with plus or minus 140 Eurofighters in service. Doesn’tleave much riggle room for F-35 purchases until Tranche 1 aircraft can be killed off.
Out here our Defence Minister has been pointing out that we are only contracted to accept 2 F-35 and talking about rescheduling the next 12.
The Wests fighter industry is going to be painfully short of orders for some time. Of course painful in US terms is a mere 70 aircraft a year!
Aussie
Uk typhoon numbers will be 107 total fleet by 2019 all tranche 2/3 a/c the configuration of the tranche 3 a/c that will be delivered are unknown at this time. The us has reordered it domestic delivery only it is to international partners if they want there own a/c earlier or later the slots remain avaiable if you are willing to do a deal about concurrency. F35 was never offered to Indian for mrca is wouldn’t allow it. There was a subsequent slight change of attitude after f18 and f16 were rejected and the possibility was dangled prior to Xmas which followed some headline that mcra maybe delayed India has quite a bit of form in this.
@ Mark
Remind me again what air to ground ordnance the RAF tranche 1 Typhoons are cleared for? Is it 1000lb dumb bomb on their own. And Paveway with another aircraft designating?
Perhaps you could compile a summary for TD to have accessible from the front page as to where Typhoon is with what weapon? Please.
“Remind me again what air to ground ordnance the RAF tranche 1 Typhoons are cleared for? Is it 1000lb dumb bomb on their own. And Paveway with another aircraft designating?”
No, Paveway II AND Litening III pod. They can acquire targets on their own.
This only because the RAF spent 76 million pounds on a national urgent requirement to give the Tranche 1 Typhoons “Austere Air Ground Capability” as Jaguar replacement.
Italian or German or Spanish Typhoons…? No.
This year the the Paveway IV will finally be cleared for use too.
Give em’ time…! XD
@ Gabby
So how many 500lbs with the pod can it carry?
Remember we are going to have to push an entire South American amphibious corps armed with plasma rifles off a certain South Atlantic archipelago…
Where are the damn Spartans when you need them…
Well the way things are going all the Greeks will have is pointy sticks.
Somewhere today on the web somebody has said that the Greeks need to cut their defence spending or there won’t be a state to defend.
Back on topic according to the Daily Fail Indians have £900billion in Swiss banks. Wow.
Either way, its a win for europe – not the US or Russians.
But it reeks like the recent Swiss decision, entirely on cost, some underhand dealings like subsidaries.
I’m not that surprised on the decision. And I still bet, that the final deal will collapse into a Indian F-35 buy, with us selling the remnants of our early production slots.
Japan scratched, India scratched, and no other medium or bigger export customer left viable.
Seems, the TD doctrine of ‘at least they offer us some return of investment’ regarding Typhoon is in shambles.
Maybe we can now move on, get the real Ellamy record on the table and start a discussion whether Typhoon is worth it’s money (and in what role) and if we should procure more of them right now.
We need to ask ourselves: what problem is solved by Typhoon T3? Are we really short of fast jets now or in 2020, if we don’t buy them?
@x
The bottleneck re Typhoons A2G-capability are pilots. As of April last year, we had exactly 8 of them, none of them on the Falklands, none of them in Libya, none of them in Afghanistan. The Tornados were used for targetting, because the navigators were trained to do that. (btw, I heard from a friend that we will face a shortage on Tornado navs, anyone in light-blue here to enlighten us?)
@Fatman re. french taxpayer subsidies
Maybe we should consider lowering the DfID subsidies for India.
@Aussie Johnno
India excluded F-35 in the original bid, because of it’s ISD. If they acquire some slots or open an assembly line of their own, this should not be a problem.
Hi McZ, RE
” As of April last year, we had exactly 8 of them”
- all instructors?
A similar number to Harrier pilots qualified for night ops off the pocket carriers, before the canning of the whole thing?
Hi Mike,
I am not saying you are not right ” it reeks like the recent Swiss decision, entirely on cost”
- but the Swiss thing was run to replace F-5s! Are you surprised?
I love TD’s optimism, but even if the Indian’s are trying to spark a race-to-the-bottom, the French are just as desperate as we are and they already have the lead. But this might explain why BAE suddenly asked EADS if they could be joint-prime-bidder in the contract last month; presumably they caught some wind of the result.
But the writing must now be on the wall for another big chunk of aerospace manufacturing in the UK; not just the few guys left at Warton but for all the companies involved in the supply chain and associated R&D. The Eurofighter will come to an end within the next few years.
Eyes must now turn to the F35, and if it remains in the UK’s best interest to continue with this programe. With the Admirals last week reported to be considering the F18 and Rafael as an ‘interim’ carrier aircraft due to the expected F35′s 2030 in-service date, and the continuing high risk of further delays and unit-price increases, should we not once again consider a carrier-capable Typhoon?
The studies have already been done for the Indian naval prospect (although frankly that’s also likely to go to Dassault), and the big question should be if its worth maintaining the UK’s manufacturing and research base in the medium term (by walking away from our pitiful workshare in F35 and relying on future carrier-launched UAV’s for high-risk strike missions), or if its time to admit we can’t afford such programmes and slowly wind everything up.
OMG !(never used that one before, not really good taste) but this smacks of another “Bob” post – the Chameleon…
Never mind, good stuff there, let’s dig in:
” might explain why BAE suddenly asked EADS if they could be joint-prime-bidder in the contract last month”
-another chameleon there, BAE: simply, knowing what’s coming, manoeuvreing to preserve the maximum share of the supply and value chain (MICA, from the merger facts):
” The transaction
This transaction results from an internal reorganisation and rationalisation of the missiles businesses of BAe Systems, EADS and FNM into a new entity called MBDA. In summary, the transaction involves three distinct ‘mergers’.
(a) EADS is acquiring a material interest in AMS’ guided weapons business. (AMS is the joint venture between BAe Systems and Finmeccanica.)
(b) Finmeccanica is acquiring a material interest in the MBD business. (MBD is the joint venture between BAe Systems and EADS.)
(c) Both Finmeccanica and BAe Systems are acquiring a material interest in AM Missiles (which was previously 100% owned by EADS).
Well, yes, as discussed on this thread:
“Eurofighter will come to an end within the next few years”, see above for details
There’s never anything better in a story than planting a Red Herring (my usual pub, BTW):
“Eyes must now turn to the F35, and if it remains in the UK’s best interest to continue with this programe. With the Admirals last week reported to be considering the F18 and Rafael as an ‘interim’ carrier aircraft due to the expected F35′s 2030 in-service date”
Bull! (never used that one before, either, but acceptable even in academic discussions):
” The studies have already been done for the Indian naval prospect (although frankly that’s also likely to go to Dassault)”
- MIG29K, already delivered in a couple of batches and the training in full swing (from land)
-not very likely to go to Dassault (another red herring with the carriers; but having said that there are only about 10 Harriers still keeping the good old Hermes going, while it is taking ages for the other two to get lined up, for service)
What a contradiction (is this a Greek tragedy we are playing out here) to finish with:
“the big question should be if its worth maintaining the UK’s manufacturing and research base in the medium term (by walking away from our pitiful workshare in F35 …)
And a lot of misspellings to pepper it with
F35 workshare will form the vital bridge between a combat-aircraft industry focused on typhoon (up to 2015) and a combat-aircraft industry based on UCAV’s (2025 onwards).
Without a strong commitment to F35 there won’t be anything left capable of designing or manufacturing an high-end UCAV come 2025!
But what are we actually designing and providing for the F35?
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TD
Aft fuselage
Vertical & horizontal tails
CV wing tips
Fuel system
Crew escape
Life support
Prognostics Health Management integration
UK aircraft carrier integration support
UK weapons integration
Vehicle management systems
Mission systems
Structural testing
Autonomic Logistics and Global Sustainment (Support)
Flight sciences including:
Hot Gas Ingestion
Thermo Acoustic
Wind Tunnel
The lift fan system for the vertical take off variant and the Martin baker ejection seat. Along with the alternative helmet system.
We’re meant to be doing roughly %20 of the work.
I think we do the seats, cockpits(I think structure), Rolls Royce do the lift fan stuff for the B version.
The military aerospace industry is now given another nail in the coffin. We’re don’t seem to be going any fast pace on unmanned systems. Happy to chop other aircraft without caring about the knock on effects *cough nimrod systems* *cough probably not even using homegrown systems on future MPA cough*
“What’s that Johnny? you want to build/design a plane or ship? Gets stuffed you’re cleaning the floor at McDonald’s, your career prospect is in a few years time you MIGHT just do the chips.
Current government doesn’t give a shit about manufacturing or jobs for the future. Ask Peter Luff, he’s happy not to favour UK suppliers any more. Have these morons not learnt anything with the recent problems of Bombardier and EU procurement rules.
“But what are we actually designing and providing for the F35?”
A modified variant of the Striker Head Mounted Display via BAE, since the Rockwell Collins HMD is having troubles. Interim contract for now, but who knows.
The Lift System for the F35B.
Ejector seats.
Stick and throttle controls.
The laser of the EOTS targeting system is made in Edinburgh.
BAE builds a the rear fuselage and the tail parts.
BAE also builds the external extremities of the wings.
BAE supplies good part of the onboard electronic countermeasures.
Chobam is involved in the fuel system and refueling probe and has already proposed a Buddy-Buddy pod for use on the F35 that might be adopted by the US Navy one day.
BAE works on the Prognostics Health Management (PHM) integration
The FADEC systems on the F135 engine are made by BAE.
A part of the Displays and power management system
Canopy mount for the STOVL version
Ejection System Maintenance Trainer (ESMT)
Weapons Loading Trainer (WLT)
These are the parts i can currently think of. Figures put the british industry participation in F35 manufacturing at 20% of the aircraft parts and 15% of the total value of each airplane produced.
RE “A modified variant of the Striker Head Mounted Display via BAE, since the Rockwell Collins HMD is having troubles. Interim contract for now, but who knows”
- interim is enough, will live on in Gripen and on another contender that I can’t recall right now
We actually provide 10% of the dev budget, so if we are getting 15% of the work, we’re quite lucky
In short; we get to make the cup-holders and the leather seat covers.
Joking aside, I’d argue that there isn’t much of our 15% share on that list which represents engineering and design skills maintained for future programmes (if everyone can agree that’s as important as other considerations), which we couldn’t otherwise sustain through civilian industries.
The American’s keep all the really clever stuff; the radar design, the key system integration, to them selves, as you’d expect. And let’s not forget that ITAR places some formidable restrictions on the skills and sensitive technologies we’d be able to transfer to any future domestic projects (UCAV’s etc.).
I’m not suggesting we give up our work share; but then I was given to understand that our work share was not based on how many aircraft we purchased, but the level of investment (something to the tune of $1billion?) we’d already made in the program. What I am questioning is if the capabilities of the F35 are still essential for our defence, and then if the expected service date and unit cost of these capabilities can be in any way justified.
If we can switch to a naval Typhoon without loosing our work-share on F35 we’d get the best of both worlds; carrier-capable aircraft this decade, industries and skills maintained for future programs, rationalised parts/spares/training costs for an airframe shared by both forces. To me at least, it makes sense.
@ArmChairCivvy; I don’t really appreciate your attitude. I’m not a regular here, but when I do make a post disagreeing with someone, I will at least try to formulate a coherent argument as to why.
“Joking aside, I’d argue that there isn’t much of our 15% share on that list which represents engineering and design skills maintained for future programmes (if everyone can agree that’s as important as other considerations), which we couldn’t otherwise sustain through civilian industries.”
Very little of what the UK produces for the F35 represents stuff that “civilian industry” will do.
Folding refueling probes? No.
Ejector seats? No.
Stealth fuselage and wing components? No.
FADEC computers? Every modern jet engine has one, but the FADEC of a Rolls Royce Trent is not the same of the FADEC for the most powerful fighter jet engine ever designed.
“We actually provide 10% of the dev budget, so if we are getting 15% of the work, we’re quite lucky”
Indeed. And there’s other F35 partner nations that have protested and that try to get contracts in place of british industry due to Britain being now widely expected to buy less than half the planes it said it would buy.
The F35 program is already struggling with a lot of problems though, so no one in the US is real eager to go back, terminate contracts with british firms and find someone else who can do the job.
Very unlikely at the moment that british industry can get a better deal than the F35 one.
Hi Steve D,
RE”when I do make a post disagreeing with someone, I will at least try to formulate a coherent argument as to why”
- who did you disagree with?
- was mine not coherent?
Sorry about the attitude you were talking about:
“If we can switch to a naval Typhoon without loosing our work-share on F35 we’d get the best of both worlds”
- and the pigs will fly?
But I’ll prove that I am a reasonable man:
On ” walking away from our pitiful workshare in F35 and relying on future carrier-launched UAV’s for high-risk strike missions” you are WRONG,
BUT
On “The American’s keep all the really clever stuff; the radar design, the key system integration, to them selves, as you’d expect. And let’s not forget that ITAR places some formidable restrictions on the skills and sensitive technologies we’d be able to transfer to any future domestic projects (UCAV’s etc.)” you are 100% RIGHT
- and to make it 110%, with the global (export) market place shrinking, the Gulf and India (and China, domestically supplied)being the notable exceptions, it is only likely that the Congress will try to twist those rules for “home team advantage”
The uk contributed about 2.5b dollars to the development program fixed with a total bill of about 50b dollars forecast for development.
Most design activity was completed around 2006/7 there now in the production support / mods /block change requirements and anyone working on f35 will have full itar clearance.
Even typhoon had just around 35% workshare with I think included a final line in that share an offer the uk refused on f35. I would add the only commonality between sea phyoon and typhoon would be the name and a exterior resemblance. The time for that decision was about 1992. I’m afraid f35 is the only a/c that can sustain even a small uk military skill base. The ucav is a red herring in my view as the likely uk requirement would be small less than 50 a/c I can’t see the uk developing one its self if they ever live up to there hype.
To be very honest, I’m very antipathic to the concept of the F-35. Not the stealth plane part, but what it was trying to achieve.
A cheap F-22, with the “permitted” level of stealth set by the American Congress and stripped of all sensitive systems.
So on one hand, they try to hype it up as the super capable next generation fighter, on the other, they try to keep the cost and the capabilities down to keep an edge. Schizophrenic project.
Given a choice, I would try to produce a stealthed chasis for the F-15 and use it as a conversion kit. Who knows, might even undercut the “permitted” level of stealth allowed by Congress. Then sell it on the market. Heaps of users would love to get a “here and now” backup to hedge against the possibility of a F-35 cancellation or underperformance.
@ McZ re A2G Typhoon and those islands.
As I have said before here and at another place if I were the Argentines and I wanted to invade those islands I wouldn’t put a plane in the air. Buy lots of MANPADS yes, put risk no planes. I suppose those 8 guys will be rushed toute suite south if the balloon appears to be rising.
@ All re Indian Aid
Imagine the stuff that £1billion could buy……
Astute 8
3 x Juan Carlos LHD
1 x USS Makin Island
2,000 Bushmasters (enough for 33 battalions)
10,000 new homes for defence families
………and that’s just in one year and big ticket items. Imagine that being spent on smaller purchases such as sonar for T45, Oto-Melara 127mm for T45, new rifle system, etc. etc. etc.
a good point x
Spending that 1 Billion on that would be great.
I think for the future the UK and its Industry is currently at an awkward moment.
I’m Pro European but I’d run a mile from most european defence projects because they always have the same problems. Europe is currently in a fix and future its not look great, while the rest of Europe isn’t doing so great the German leadership is terrible, its like “sod the lot of you, we’re going to make you go down this road so we look even more competitive”
So the UK is currently in a tough spot, try and get more cooperation on US projects, which will be hard because the US aren’t so fond of technology share on new things. Or Europe where we can do what we like with the tech but fight 20 odd years with each other on who does what.
I think Unmanned wise I really think we need a separate company that is not BAE. A company that will always be lean and innovate, BAE will still have huge chunks of work. But that introduces leadership problem, we’ve got no leadership what so ever from the politicians and as a skill base further reduces we are going to see loads more management problems at the defence companies, as industry shrinks even more, we’ll see a lack of movement and get the same people over and over again.
What does the UK do for F-35?
Manufacturing is basically it, there’s really quite limited design opportunities for us in the programme. Back in the day the UK had lots of STOVL knowledge, but that has now been transferred to the US for no gain. The UK has had very little input into the detail design and development besides UK-specific issues. The key problem is putting everything together and integrating all those complex systems.
As for F-35 being the bridge to UCAS; the important thing is to keep the design and integration side around, not the manufacturing. We’re already in a fairly dire state given that the last time the UK did this was the mid 1990s with Typhoon. There’s tiny amounts of money being invested in UCAS R&D.
At the end of the day there’s very limited budget, and the vast majority of that is tied up in personnel and existing equipment programmes.
big dave publicily puffing his chest out saying he will do all he can to clinch this deal.
It would be interesting to be a telephone operator in the next few days, a couple of calls to india methinks, mentioning aid, trade agreements, immigration/student numbers etc etc.
I wonder if there might be a call to that sleazy shit sarkozy as well, i really don’t like that guy, particularly after 60th d-day celebrations when he stood next to barry o and claimed it was a great french-american success, total oxygen thief.
Still be interesting to see him explain to the french people, how they can sell these planes so cheap, ie costs covered by the french taxpayer, not that they’re known for taking to the streets!!
That could screw up his election campaign
To be honest, I don’t really see the Indian deal as a major loss. It seemed to me that the Indians wanted everything for nothing. With 85% domestic manufacture, it doesn’t really provide a major boost to each of the Eurofighter partners’ economies. Presumably, the only real profit comes from ToT which would be pure profit and arguably money for old rope. From a nation point of view, rather than a business view, the Indians are taking the piss a bit. A friend of mine works for Selex and has told me that the Indians want ALL of the software coding.
We have spent years and years and billions for the Indians to just have it all for bugger all.
Regarding the Naval Typhoon debate, I noticed someone mentioned the time was overdue for Navalisation and commality would be minimal. Eurofighter consortium did recently suggest that a STOBAR version could be produced with minimal changes while maintaining 85% commonality. This is certainly something worth considering.
Mark, I still struggle with the comcept that any politician is going to throw away 50 odd Tranche 1 aircraft. From what I can glean from your SDSR plans, the idea was to operate around 100-110 Typhoons which left room to purchase 50 or so F-35, which would give you a minimal F-35 wing split between the RAF and the FAA. The problem is that you are committed to 160 thereabout Typhoon’s. If you cannot get rid of 50 Typhoon’s it doesn’t work. Your options are (1) to sell Tranche 1 cheap through to the end of the decade, which is effectively a UK taxpayer subsidy for someone, or (2) sell Tranche 3A slots, as many as you can.
It was illuminating to watch reports of the Euro zone meeting at the weekend hopefully calling for growth without, as usual, putting any proposal for how that can occur. It is hard to to come to any conclusion other than Euroe is stuck in the same kind of lost decade as plagued Japan. QED, it is not a matter of hanging on until things come good in 2016, it is slow growth at best until 2020 something.
Aussie
Weve done the tranche 1 thing several times there’s a large percentage of 2 seat trainers in that batch which are no longer deemed necessary as hawk 2 will take a bigger training load and they have been worked hard over the last decade and will require an expensive rebuild to continue for reasons similar to the initial f35 a/c have experienced so they will go.
The uk will buy more than 50 f35 a/c infact I expect it to become the sole uk fastjet.
Mark, best of luck, but I believe you will be using Typhoon longer than you think.
The RAAF has the same plan to go an all F-35 fast jet force with Hawk as the lead-in but it is coming unstuck because of delays and cost increases for the F-35. Even though the RAAF’s time scale is tighter than yours an all F-35 force for us is closer to 2030. This probably means some extra F-18F’s, but like the RAAF, the RAF will be operating legacy fighters for a long time.
RE ” but like the RAAF, the RAF will be operating legacy fighters for a long time”
- just that with the Growler option exercised the RAAF combo will be more useful (in working together) than the RAF combo emerging after Tornado retirement
From what I have read, the Indians don’t even want the aid as they see it as insulting: They have told DFID not to give it government to government any more but to invest it directly in DFID’s own projects- since this means that this aid is no longer buying friends and influence, it cannot represent useful Soft power and should be scrapped
But if it can give you an “in” on Indian defence projects, it might be seriously worth while. Some of the Indian/Russian joint development stuff really is worth taking a look at. I particularly love their new AShMs. Westernize it, and you might be in a good position to sell to the rest of the western world.
interesting discussion. quite honestly the best move would probably be to develop the sea typhoon. go back to steam catapults (you don’t need the electromagnetic ones…they’re just a vice with little practicality), develop the manta uav and be done with entanglements with the US.
after having switched from the B model to the C, it shouldn’t be that difficult to fully withdraw from the program.
an even better move would probably be to scrap one of the carriers and just make it the largest most capable helo carrier on the planet. a super commando carrier if you like. a natural sea base for special ops missions and a natural for coalition operations.
what say you all?
A billion pounds into graphene research…….
Thought this was a very insightful article on the subject
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?shop=dae&modele=feature&prod=132379&cat=5