What is it with our journalists, why are they so biblically ignorant and should we expect more.
The Ministry of Defence has, to an extent, asked for this. It has about 85,000 civil servants, roughly the same as the total complements of the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force put together. One of the first places to start a clear-out is there. Such numbers of pen-pushers are unsustainable. Drastic reductions in this establishment are no doubt tabled for the meeting of the defence review now rescheduled for next week (it was to be on Friday but for the death of the Prime Minister’s father). So they should be
Is this from the Beano or Daily Star?
Surely the drivel about Civil Service pen-pushers would only come from someone who does not have access to the internet or because even the most rudimentary journalistic research would discover that that statement is patently absurd.
No, it’s from the widely respected (in some quarters) Daily Telegraph columnist and journalist Simon Heffer. Writing in today’s Telegraph he pontificates on the future shape of the MoD and Armed Forces.
At the risk of repeating ourselves, like one would to a small child.
THERE ARE NOT 85,000 PEOPLE IN THE MoD PUSHING PENS
We looked at this some time ago but because it is such a recurring theme worth repeating.
9,600 are in the Trading Funds, that’s the Met office, Hydrographic Office, Defence Science and Technology Laboratory and the Defence Support Group. All of these provide vital services to the MoD and all but one actually return a profit.
10,500 are locally employed civilians outside the UK, educating service families children, maintaining the estate and running stores for example.
2,700 are in Defence Estates, 7,700 involved with Policing and Guarding and 2,700 in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary
For more detail click on the link above.
Another gem from Simon…
In a time of stringency the RAF appears expensive. We need the air capacity to defend our shores against anything like a 9/11 attack, and a core service to deal with other threats to our security abroad and to retain continuity of British expertise in aerial warfare. However, this is the service that must, unfortunately, be most reduced
So what part of air transport, helicopter lift, ISR and CAS that are largely being provided by the RAF shall we so easily cut.
Why do we tolerate such blatant rubbish?
Anyway, back to Dennis the Menace and Chantelle/Preston, I am sure I will find a more educated and informed view of the future security and defence of the UK.
yes, there is yet more spotty DT coverage today.
I’d also like to add that whilst many government departments (NHS etc.) have increased in size during the Labour years, the MOD decreased in size by 20% and finding further manpower reductions now is probably going to be difficult without affecting performance
“10,500 are locally employed civilians outside the UK, educating service families children, maintaining the estate and running stores for example.”
Thats quite a chunk, mostly lowly paid I expect, but how many of them might go if we completely pull out of Germany ???
I’d say a lot! other than germany where else do we employ civ-pop, BATUS in canada would be the next largest i would assume, falklands other than that maybe a few dribs and drabs elsewhere, so a conservative estimate i’d say 10,000ish although i suspect we would keep a small force in germany, at germanys request. My own opinion not a front page pre SDR rumour that a friend of a friends aunty said she heard!
“other than germany where else do we employ civ-pop”
Cypress………?
“i suspect we would keep a small force in germany, at germanys request.”
It would be a sensible place to collate the remaining heavy forces for training with their peers.
ah well i had blocked cyprus from my mind as other bloke i knew got a posting there except me! (i’m not a divvy honest).
Does anybody know how many generals:soldiers, admirals:sailors:ships, and air marshals:airmen:planes ? OK, I want to know how many “air marshals” there are, and whether there number is proportionate with the other services………
Does that figure for civil servants include contractors? I know the catering went down hill at Excellent when civilians replaced RN chefs….
x, about 3 months ago the mail on sunday printed numbers for all ranks as a comparison chart ie figures for 1980 and figures for 2010 I did put them up but i can’t remember what thread it was, the 2 shocking things that were obvious, were how much manpower we had already chopped and how top heavy we were today off the top of my head i think there were 300 full colnels and 80 brigs!!!
Yes I should have said generals:soldiers:battalions…..
Rank inflation is a characteristic of a small service. In the Cold War era there were quite “junior” US base commanders who had more aircraft under than some allied air forces. Rank inflation is also found in larger armed services that depend on conscripts. The Soviet Navy had a dizzying number of senior rate ranks.
I think the problem in the media is a more general one that over the year, the Media has stereotyped the CS into being a grossly inefficient organisation, staffed by Sir Humphrey clones, and which is determined to screw over the armed forces at every opportunity.
The reason this sort of garbage is still written (according to a Sun editorial the other day we seem to spend most of our time drinking gins in London clubs over lunch!) is because the media gain nothing from being nice to the CS. We’re an easy target, and why deny yourself an easy target by looking truthfully at what the CS does to support defence?
The Defence press team have tried for ages to raise awareness of the CS and what it does, and quell urban myths (such as the bloody bonus scheme) and they regularly try briefing this. Ultimately though, truthful reporting about the CS doesnt sell papers or get readers of columnists filled with their daily hate towards the CS and Goldstein (our true lord & master
). The media want to sell papers, and writing about the valuable role played by the CS won’t do that – writing about bloated individuals with no clue about what poor Tommy Atkins is going through, and who smother their mustaches in pure evil before going to work every day does.
As a career CS (and serving& deployed reservist)I’ve resigned myself to the fact that while I remain in this line of work, the media will continue to regard me in the same level of contempt as that held for convicted paedophiles and MPs. Is it any wonder that our best & brightest leave?
Similarly, I’ve noticed that the 3 services are very clever in ensuring they brief about a subtle divide between the ‘services’ and the ‘MOD’ – they make out that the MOD is somehow a seperate entity, and not the headquarters organisation of all 3 services. Every time something goes wrong, or painful decisions are taken, I’ve seen often quite senior officers put the blame on ‘the MOD’, as if it is a seperate staff in there, rather than their colleagues posted in on 2 year tours.
A bit more honesty wouldn’t be amiss, but again nothing is gained for the 3 services by reminding the public that they were the ones who came up with unpopular options. Far easier to blame it on the nasty MOD…
Wasters, end of. (BAE, MOD)
Thieving from the poor to kill the poor…
Seeing as most of our current `enemies` travel around on donkeys and live in caves without a pot to piss in or window to throw it out of – remind me why it is these disgusting organisations needs to skim off so many billions of pounds from the common taxpayer to build ridiculous machines of war, which most of the time don’t even work properly, and massively overpriced. These organisations are seemingly run by 55 year old 10 year olds, who earnestly believe they have some purpose, and can build really cool stuff to blow things up.
MOD, BAE…
Its good to hear from those on the other side of the fence and I hope your comments are the first of many. I believe that debates on defence should include those from all quarters.
I can understand your disparaging comments, however history teaches that a stronger group or nation will always attack the weak. Whether we like it or not it is an unfortunate and inevitable fact of life, but that what comes from being a species evolved from primates. Primates attack each other and just about anything else on a regular basis why should we be any different? The difference is we have evolved a little further, but unfortunately not as far as we’d like to think.
Military organisations are costly, incredibly so, but on the whole they have the opportunity to great acts of good. British troops were sent to Rwanda and made a direct impact in their area of operations. Rwanda wasn’t a case of huge armies clashing, using the latest state of the art weaponry, it was a case of neighbours and local communities clubbing their neighbours to death and cutting them to pieces with kitchen knives. How do you stop something like that? By asking nicely? The Nazi death camps only ceased slaughtering their inmates on an industrial scale when allied tanks rolled up to the gates and stopped them at the point of a gun. The reign of terror lead by the West Side Boys in Sierra Leone only came to an end following a massive fire-fight with British Troops.
The high cost of equipment is due to the successive advances in technology, unfortunately being an advanced industrial nation we find ourselves at the forefront because of our geographic location and historical legacies. We had a large empire not that long ago, given the fact that we still have a defence obligation to these far-flung places, we need to pay for the capability to reach, defend and reinforce them as necessary. Don’t forget that arms races have been going on since bronze replaced stone and iron subsequently replaced bronze. As an aside, I’m sure a great many Roman Senators complained about the high cost of training and maintaining a Roman Legion, very little seems to changed even after 2000 years!
Also, don’t forget that the jet engines that power the airliner to take you on holiday were originally developed for warplanes, as were a great many other inventions. The World Wide Web was also developed to prevent US communications faltering following a large scale military attack. However, we often take these things for granted and have usually long forgotten their original military application.
The problem the UK has with poor equipment is down to the economies of scale. We cannot build and field large numbers of successive marks due to the limited number we buy. To do so we have to get rid of the obsolete model and buy afresh, unlike the Americans who can cascade their old equipment to the reserve forces due to their immense size.
As for our enemies who travel around on donkeys and live in caves, these are the same enemies that throw sulphuric acid in the faces of school girls for the crime of receiving an education, and the same ones who stone rape victims to death for crimes against chastity. Please feel free to tell me where the justice is in that.
The world has its fair share of bast**ds who don’t deserve to draw the same breath as the rest of humanity. Did the West Side Boys deserve to die or rot in prison? Yes, damn right they do. But that’s only my honest opinion.
Should we have invaded Iraq,? No we shouldn’t have, but you don’t need to be a general to work that one out. That was a political decision and you know who to ask about that one.
Does violence ever solve anything? Ask the mayor of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, I believe they would give you a very specific answer.