Agusta Westland and Thales have unveiled the next generation of their helicopter borne airborne surveillance and control system (ASaC)
The current ASaC7 is on the venerable Sea King but as CVF construction continues the next generation of airborne early warning system is under consideration. Given that CVF will not be having cats and traps a vertical launch system seems the inevitable choice to fulfil the Maritime Airborne Surveillance and Control (MASC) requirement. Have a look here and here for an in depth description.
The Sea King based system is a mature system and consistently under rated, in some areas it’s performanceis said to exceed that of the much vaunted US E2 Hawkeye and has seen service in Afghanistan, supplementing other ISR assets such as the Sentinel and RAPTOR equipped Tornadoes in the Counter IED mission.
A CV22 based system, using the same electronic systems, has also been proposed for the ASaC7 replacement but this would mean introducing yet another airframe into system and the cost of this would seem to rule it out. The name would have to be changed if we did buy it, the CV22 Tactical Organic Sensing System (TOSS) might raise an eyebrow or two!
CV22 TOSS
A Merlin based system is self evidently the lowest cost and lowest risk solution.
AW791 AW101 ASaC
Looking at the cutaway diagram there seems to be quite a lot of excess space in the back, I wonder if this could be fitted to an NH90?
My ideal helicopter force for the UK would be a CH53K and NH90 instead of Lynx, Puma, Merlin, Sea King and Chinook.
Replace 6 types and multiple versions with 2 with the obvious commonality savings, another post perhaps!
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21 Comments
in what areas does the Sea King AEW outperform the Hawkeye?
In some of the overland ground target tracking modes I think, it veers into JSTARs and Sentinel territory and has been deployed to Afghanistan in the counter IED role. I remember chatting to an AWACS operator some time back who told me a few tales of Hawkeye operators being very impressed. It is very crew efficient as well
Admin, this does not seem to use surplus Merlin HM.1 airframes or am I wrong?
Interesting that it is a palletized system deployed via the rear ramp (hence not HM.1) this suggests a versatile system that could be deployed on other platforms, no?
I think the press release covers that specifically, because it is a palletised system it should be able to use any utility airframe as you say
I suspect that means we will buy a reduced number of mission kits and deploy as necessary on utility airframes.
That seems sensible I suppose, except when you need those utility variants for something else
APY-9 on the E-2D is supposed to rectify the Hawkeye’s overland problems.
I wonder why they haven’t made an AESA version of Searchwater? Seems to be the way to go these days.
Ref NH90 – Why ?
Lots of its operators are having problems. If your going to do “medium” the AW101 benefits from 3 engines and the ability to actually carry defensive sub-systems and guns, plus payload. NH90, like UH60 or SeaKing starts to trade payload versus defensive sub-systems versus guns, its all about weights.
In the case of the AEW mod, Merlin should be able to carry it higher, and for longer than an NH90, so that is important.
Unfortunately I doubt very much we will see brand new Merlin’s procured for this, because in reality we can not really afford to NOT upgrade all 38 HM1′s to HM2′s and we are don’t exactly have a massive force of soon to be ex-RAF aircraft replacing the SK MK4 “Junglie” either :-(
ThinkDefense said, “My ideal helicopter force for the UK would be a CH53K and NH90 instead of Lynx, Puma, Merlin, Sea King and Chinook.
Replace 6 types and multiple versions with 2 with the obvious commonality savings, another post perhaps!”
You could get down to three types by just going with Lynx, Merlin and Chinook. Merlin can handle the jobs done by Sea King and Puma right?
but we have 3 variants of merlin as well!
Jed, you know what I am like, ruthless commonality to relentlessly drive down costs, even at the expense of some capability. My thinking was to replace Lynx and Merlin with NH90, NH90 sitting somewhere in between. Perhaps I need to come back to helicopters in another post, haven’t done anything rotary for a while now
By the way, did anyone notice the colour of the roundels on the illustration?
oh oh – don;’t like the last line from the point of RN / UK capabilities:
“The palletised ASaC equipment also enables a front line re-role capability delivering greater aircraft utility. The ASaC equipment could be role fitted to all AW101 utility variants”
Great marketing for AW and THALES “its modular” – crap for UK because it means we will get the whole “fitted for but not with” debacle extended to the aircraft fleet:
“mmmmm’ what’s more important this week, Commando helicopter lift, or airborne warning and control, oh I don’t know, you decide…..”
I’m just surprized that this is NOT being offered as an HM.1 conversion.
Even 38 HM1/2 in service seems a lot when you compare the number of surface ships they might operate from.
26 Merlin HC3/3A isn’t enough RM transports anyway so a new buy of Navalized Merlin HC?? would be required or else we are paying out on keeping Sea Kings going.
Admin, just how different are the HC3/3A ? Those 3A have cost a lot of money so far.
We should be able to get to 4 main types; Merlin, Chinook, Wildcat & perahps AW149 for the AAC. There will always be fleets within fleets to some extent.
I just don’t see the advantage of NH90 when we already have Merlin.
admin said, “but we have 3 variants of merlin as well!”
You’d have at least a two NH90 variants with the NFH and TTH. Possibly a third if the AEW isn’t truly modular.
I’m of mixed mind on the CH-53K. It’s huge, will undoubtedly be expensive,.. and did I mention it’s huge?
CH-47s can’t carry near as much, but they have great high-altitude performance, a nice, compact deck spot factor (rotors folded), and are a bargain in comparison.
hmmm check out the thoughts of pilots on pilot rumour network (link to the right). It gets a slating, as it’s spent a lot of time on the ground in australia, engine failure holes in the floor seats to small to sit with body armour on never buy mark 1 of any product!!!
NH90 i meant to put in there, sausage fingers strike again! oh an while i’m here my breakdown for rotor would be RN, merlin/wildcat, Army, wildcat,apache, AW149 (rejig the wildcat contract less wildcat) RAF, chinook with a very slim possibility of additional heavy lift in the future, see what comes out of the french/german project
I was only thinking out aloud, it will never happen.
Puma isnt going any time soon, we will likely keep some of the upgraded Lynx and merlins in service as well
So we will have 3 versions of Lynx, 4 of Sea King, 3 of merlin, 2 of Chinook, Puma, Gazelle and Apache, plus a handful of other types like in RN, RAF and Army service like the Bell 212, Squirrel, Griffin, A109 and the Dauphins used by FOST (I know some of these are not actually operated by the RN)
Its hardly a coherent or cost effective fleet.
With my ruthless commonality hat on and in fantasy fleet mode I would slash and burn the entire lot and go for CH53K, NH90x2 and maybe a re-lifed Gazelle or EC635
This fleet would, unlike our current types, be able to operate interchangeably from ships or land bases and would allow a complete homogenisation of the rotary training and fleet management system.
Our CH47′s do not have rotor fold, the RAF Merlins do not have either rotor or tail fold and of course neither do the Pumas.
A pipe dream I know but I wonder if the massive through life savings would justify it?
I think it would take a C5 Galaxy to lift a CH53 into theatre. Yes it can carry more than a Chinook but how does the RAF get it to where it needs to be?
On a CVF and fly in?
I know its not answering the question but A400 can take 2 Apache or one NH90, C17 could take 2. We would have to fly in with the CH53K, which have a massive range and can be refuelled or we use an AN124 like we do with loads of kit
As much as I am a fan of the NH90, it is another type we simply cannot afford to introduce. There are also reported issues with the floor of the aircraft!!!
We have the Chinook and supposedly more on the way????
We have opted for the Merlin and we in my view must stick with it. What we need to do some how is try and harmonise the versions we have. The HM1 should have had a rear ramp from day one and things would have been really easy.
We now have about 28-30 HM1′s being upgraded to HM2. That leaves 10-12 HM1s!!!!
The Marines need a replacement for their Seaking HC4s and the 28 (22HC3s and 6 HC3as) have been earmarked for that purpose, hopefully after being navalised (folding blades and tail rotor etc).
In my view the decision to go for a PFI for the SAR and the subsequent selection of the S92 does not make sense. If the RN has surplus HM1s or it is not economic to modify the HC3/3As for the RM then that is waht the MCA should have. The Navy/Marines could then get new build Merlins that combine the best features of the HC3/3A and the HM2 (something similar to that proposed for the US Airforce CSAR-X. That would give a very flexible helecopter for the Marines and Navy that COULD be re-rolled to provide Utility/SAR/CSAR/AS and ASAC as required. The MCA would have a fleet of very similar helo’s that the Navy could supply pilots for and the airframes could be used by the military in a dire emergency. It would be possible to harmonise maqny of the components amongst the two fleets.
Scrap the wildcat, update all existing Lynx with CTS800 engines and upgraded avionics and DAS and replace with AW149 built with folding blades and tail that can operate off the smaller RN ships and provide a very useful utility helo for the AAC.
Purchase more WAH64s as 67 id not enough, ensure that they have the standard RTM322 engine as fitted to Merlin and posibly AW149 (gearbox needs upgraqding to handle the full power of the RTM322.
Add a gazelle sized replacement to provide a little bird / Kiowa type role.
First flight of the Wildcat
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/image86693.html
if the cash was there (stop sniggering at the back) would it not be a feasible study (study not buy) to sort of meet in the middle, ie using the benefits of the tiltrotor, and the knowledge of AW with the sonar. Place the aforementioned kit in the AW/BA 609 tiltrotor smaller than V-22 but big enough to take equipment/crew for ASW.
check out the brouchure, i’m also thinking export potential as i’ve pointed to nicholas on the f/lynx thread with regard to AW149 over blackhawk
http://www.agustawestland.com/system/files/brochures_new_product/609%20Government%20Broch%20prf%203.pdf
So this system could fit into the rear ramp of a Greyhound COD, which would give the flying performance of the Hawkeye at a cheaper cost ?