What is in store for the A400?
As we know, it is due to replace the RAF C130K models, is over budget and will be in service later than expected.
Business as usual then.
Negotiations are still ongoing for the final share of the overspend, various partner nations are talking about order reductions and nothing concrete seems to have come out into the public yet.
Prediction time, the MoD will eventually settle on 22 A400′s and retire the C130J’s early as part of the future SDR moving at an accelerated pace to its ‘two type strategy’
The A400 will also be included in a ‘deal’ with EADS that includes the A330 and the cancellation of the FSTA PFI, this will also be integrated into a joint programme with the French combining strategic transport, air refuelling and tactical transport.
That’s my contribution to the rumour mill for today.
sounds suspiciously sensible………?
Hmm perhaps.
Even with the A400M, if we retire our C130J’s we won’t have enough airlift for the Afghan air bridge.
From what i’ve seen of all this sharing with the French, the Airtanker deal for example, all seems to be centred around the French delaying all their procurements and simply buying hours off our (already too few) airframes. How exactly will that be of any use to us as we already have too little in the way of airlift?
This’ll only work if the French actually buy some airframes to pool with ours.
And a joint pool still leaves questions as to what happens if they disagree with us on a policy issue. Say if we needed to airlift resources to the South Atlantic quickly. That is why i’ve always been uncomfortable with these joint pools where no one side has clear final say on how they can be used.
Sounds like a very sensible plan indeed although the devil would of course be in the detail and I don’t have much confidence it would work out that well. Moving toward retiring or selling the J model herky birds early would be good in terms of support and logistics costs although I wonder how many more A400’s we would get? I doubt however we would reach a 2 type transport fleet as the A400 is a bit big for many jobs so it would leave an opportunity for a smaller type as discussed before.
As for the A330 tanker programme it’s still a mess but cancelling the PFI and somehow sharing and operating the aircraft with a similar sized French fleet would seem to be a good idea. Cancelling the PFI would also open the door for the A400 to be used as a tactical tanker if we bought the kits, something which the PFI precluded.
Euan, I agree, even if the A400M was to fully replace the C130s, there is a need now for a smaller intra-theatre aircraft C27J (perhaps). I saw the A400M at RIAT and it was bloddy impressive (as musch as you can tell from an airshow).
The question is how many will we get? If we are replacing both C130J and C130K with A400M and we are already short on airlift capacity we need at least 50!!!
More C17s are needed as well, probably 12-16.
I don’t know the numbers for the intra-theatre type, maybe 10-20???
That then leave the FSTA. The PFI has to be cancelled it is a really bad deal for the RAF and the taxpayer. It offers far too few aircraft, the aircraft and deficient in many respects (Tail boom system, cargo doors, armour, DAS and the ability to be refulled in the air themselves)and finally the real killer clause was that AirTanker would be the sole provider of in-flight refuelling so now capability to refuel helo’s (as you can’t do that with a A330. It needs a hose and drogue system fitted to a A400M or C130 ttpe.
at the risk of repeating myself (again) i still like the idea of the japanese xc-2. I know there are export rstrictions however this is being debated in the japanese govt as we speak.
A pilot on the pilot rumour site correctly pointed out that most if not all of A400m flights will be from tarmac runways to to tarmac runways it just ensures we HAVE the ability to land on sandy/grassy stuff!
So i would split the airlift into 2 cats, jet C-17 and xc-2 bearing in mind there is a AAR kit for the xc-2 which makes sensehelps with the debarcle with present tanker contract.
Turbo prop would be A400m, herc (until they reach the end of airframe life) and then either C-27 or C295 to keep EADS happy after ordering less having bought some xc-2′s! I can’t understand why you would need an aircraft that can lift 37 tonnes to carry 70-100 paratroopers who would weigh 1.5-2 tonnes max, same with airdrop, why use huge aircraft if total weight of pallets is only 5-7 tonnes. having the choice is better.
Oh and in my dreamland as japan is looking at typhoon offer some as part-ex for xc-2 and bingo you’ve reduced your FJ numbers for the defence review and you’re not paying BAe a penalty price for the cancellation of tranche 3, a price knowing them would buy man city, twice!!
What miffs me (other than another Eurocargo jet, civilian or military, vastly over time and budget, the singular and these days largely American builders are as bad in their own ways but the multiple partners seem to increase trouble geometrically) is how much of the Forces’ vehicle/systems/aircraft “fleet madness” occurs with really bloody expensive airframes, both fixed and rotary. If the herkies’ J30 delivers promised performance it could be a legitimate contender against A400M, the straight Js less so. But MoD needed to pick one or the other and then get off the pot. As it is Hercules have been bought — expensive mostly by fleet numbers, Lord knows a thoroughly de-risked design, but an aging concept — while A400M chuntered on with spiraling costs, so it could be bought too and a little shaved off the bill selling on depreciated Js. This was graphically stupid. Run the old frames on to wait for EADS’ Godot or kill the contract and call sunk costs the penalty fee. Given the choice I’d prefer A400M as spec’d. Especially because of its refueling potential. (And for out-of-area concepts, Paul thanks for bringing up the bigger Japanese design, I’ll be interested to see if Embraer’s KC-390 is up to any snuff in the more middling size range. That might have been a bidding counterweight to A400M at least.)
Paul,
The USAF seem to prefer them for Strategic Brigade Airdrop of their paras because of rugged airframes, additional countermeasures (even if you walloped the drop zone with American airpower it pays to be careful) and the ability to wave off the green light and scoot out of there quickly with jets. Also less stress on your refuelling infrastructure when you go all the way from the US east coast to somewhere in, say, the Middle East or Africa. The luxury of a superpower. But if one has critical mass (probably would’ve been wiser to buy more C-17s with the herky-J money and wait on EADS) then doing likewise with the Spearhead battalion would I suppose be a good thing. But I’m a gross layman on aircraft/airpower issues so all this may be talking (at length) out of my arse
Errata: of course the RAF call their new Hercules 130K, I still think of them in terms of the original production designation on the open market. Any idea how A400M will be type-classed in service?
I heard the A400M’s have been using the call sign “Grizzly” and its been mentioned in a few airbus press releases so they might be going official on it. So Grizzly C1 then.
If UK does dispose of C-130 and goes to A400M only, does seem to be a gap in the fleet for something in the C-27J/CN-295 class to do the intra-theatre roles and help off-load the helicopter fleet. Of course affordability then becomes an issue but then for cetain missions a small fixed wing tactical transport would be cheaper than a heavy-lift helicopter. Seems to be the way the US is going with its JCA program. Also could do some of roles like paratroop training that have been run down due to cost
c
further to your points, the US (ie the people who like big stuff) even go as far as using the EADS C212 which is the smallest aircraft in the range for para training, ramp jumps/drops. It has been used in afghan for remote drops as it can turn on a sixpence (nickel) and can go where the big birds can’t turn/climb. I’m surprised we are not thinking of this, costs in fuel alone must be a factor cheaper to take small number of men or stores on reg basis from khandahar to bastion in small fixed wing than fat albert or rotary
No forgetting of course the the state of the art C130J as used by the RAF (Launch customer no less). Was ordered without DAS, External fuel tanks and then to cap it all did not fit the US automated Cargo Handling system but fitted the old Beverley/K skydel role equipment and Blackburn winch!!!. Which actually means that in some respects the older K model is better!!!
I don’t know if that has now been changed there were rumours of a new system (built by Brown and Root). Probably never happended. Is the RAF going to take this old crap from the C130s and put in the A400M????
I wouldn’t put it past them.