Think Defence hopes to start sensible conversations about UK defence issues, no agenda or no campaign but there might be one or two posts on containers, bridges and mexeflotes!
doing something and then letting OPFOR get all of the wrong ideas is part of the recce thinking. I’m sorry if you copped the flak!
x
@ James
I am busy burning all my books on the Cod Wars and USN/Soviet naval coming togethers during the Cold War. Plus all the other books I have that recount relations less than war at sea between states.
And soon as I have finished I am off on to campus to burn any books or journal articles that mention Argentine and Chile rapprochement because they are obviously talking bullshit.
After that I might have to start on books on Nazi Germany because the very idea that a small bunch of nutjobs can actually wield power over a whole nation, the majority of which doesn’t really support them and just wants to get on with life, and make the armed forces of aforementioned nation do stoooopid things well that is a daft idea.
I can’t believe I am being lectured on voting by somebody who lives in de-facto one party state that thinks banning free speech is a good idea.
One final thing. I have got Call Me Dave to sack William Hague and just give the job to some random bod who has done a tour of Afghanistan.
Phil
Would you like some vinegar for those chips?
topman
touched a nerve ?
Observer
@x
Got it the other way round. You get voting one party states only after you mastered power structures. If you have strong opposition obviously you need to learn how to practice the “James Manuver” more.
And you can keep burning your books. I knew a girl from Argentina, so unless you have a closer source, I’d postit that I actually have a closer “grassroots” level look at the country than you do.
“I can’t believe I am being lectured on voting by somebody who lives in de-facto one party state that thinks banning free speech is a good idea.”
That from someone who thinks Singapore has “foilage”.
250 square km. 5 million people. You do the maths. And think how much damage a riot caused by a loudmouth with less brains than common sense can cause in an area with that population density.
x
Yes.
James
X and Observer,
the little trick comes in handy, but sometimes to beneficial effects. You can let the mother of your children take all of the heartache and whining of the two little darlings being forced to have a symbolic sprig of broccoli on their plates for the Sunday lunch, and then distract everyone with some sleight of hand and pointing to some pre-positioned oddity in the corner of the dining room, while quietly removing and eating the sprigs of broccoli. It really works well if Mrs J is part of the conspiracy, and it works even better than that if the children are also part of the conspiracy, but don’t know that Mrs J is, and Mrs J also not knowing that the children are in on it.
After that, you take the children out on their ponies and make sure they soak up some sunshine, and force an apple down them for the vitamins. And later, you take Mrs J to bed and give her a right royal Jubilee seeing to. Everyone’s happy that way.
Now, if only the business was doing so well…
x
Too busy burning all my political theory books…
Mike
x
Indeed, his nickname is (was?) ‘the cowboy’ and is a good example of the unstable/odd part of her cabinet, I am no expert on S.American politics… perhaps its as common as the punch ups we see in the eastern europe regions, but the past histories of the men in power over there are just as questionable as the neighbours. Thugs in suits, and can be just as stupid as thugs.
But what is clear is that the Argentine people who think instead of shouting in this are rather more level on their approach; a group of leading Argentine academics writing to the government to not harp on about/distract with the 1982 conflict went by largely un-noticed in the media a few months back, apart from Al Beeb.
Perhaps they’ve long since burned their books? ;D
My Argentine teacher freind always tells me “…it’ll happen when they pay me on time…” aka a snowball’s chance in S.Afghanistan.
Meanwhile their military has been rather quiet, no words nor moves; either thats something to be a little disconcerted about, or perhaps there are still men from ’82 that remember and have sense. Not that they have any assets to use other than bugging around with their Navy/Aviation, both of which we can counter (hells bells, the ’45 could do both…)
James
Mike,
I’m sure that among many officers (I’m well out of it now, but some are still serving), I was not the only one dis-quieted about Argentine officers being part of the Joint staff Course. One from each of their services. Didn’t feel right at all, despite the fact that individually they were all nice fellers. The Airman had a quarter in Bracknell a bit diagonal from ours, and I remember his young boy falling off his bike in front of me and losing his front teeth on the tarmac – there’s only a human empathy when you pick him up and take him to his parents’ front door, and the mother is in tears of concern and probably some gratitude.
x
@ Mike
It isn’t the quiet majority who worry me it is the vocal minority. It wouldn’t take a fleet to cause trouble. The Presidency doesn’t exist in a vacuum there has to be some residual support.
Anyway what I do know?
x
@ James
That is the sad thing though isn’t it? Both our countries have such a long history of friendship.
Heck like all our cloest friends “we” have been to war with them and had a bit of shoeing at their hands.
It isn’t the Argentine people but their crackpot president with whom I have problem.
Observer
At least it’ll blow over soon. At the rate she’s making herself look stupid, dogmatic and ineffectual, she’s bound to be out of a job soon.
Idiot presidents last 1 term, countries last a lot longer. Give it time to blow over.
Simon
As far as I see it many of the South American countries exist on a knife-edge between corruption and democracy. This added to the need to “bond” creates some interesting allegiances. I doubt this is what the majority of the people want but we’re talking about people who are in the back of beyond of Patagonia or struggling to survive in the Darien Gap.
How long do you think it’s going to take before a South American Alliance really will call the shots in the South Atlantic?
What’s the general consensus for the future of South America (since I really do not see Argentina standing alone for much longer)?
x
@ Observer
Yes countries do last longer. This is country that should be as wealthy as Australia and with attendant living standards and infrastructure.
Shame really.
Observer
“How long do you think it’s going to take before a South American Alliance really will call the shots in the South Atlantic?”
Not too long. It’s the next thing on the list after “melting the poles”.
@X
Richer. Australia’s biodiversity and resources, while fairly unique, is also rather poor, most of the continent is desert and scrubland, not so for Argentina, it’s located in one of the most prolific areas in the world. Which makes it’s condition even worse.
I’ve always argued that “democracy” is a system of government for medium-high developed countries, simply chucking “democracy” into a country doesn’t work, you need the educated middle class first before it can grow. Can you imagine people living hand to mouth asking to vote? Is it that much of a stretch to see the golden opportunity to gain power by greasing a few palms? In poorer countries, “democracy” and “capitalism” almost always go together, to the detriment of the country.
Of course, dictatorship isn’t sainthood either.
Simon
Observer,
With the amount of water that’s been falling here in the last couple of months I’d guess the poles must already have melted
As soon as UNASUR manage to create a true single market the “Brazillian effect” should grow exponentially, this will then mean the burning of a lot of fossil fuels (like China) and help speed up the ice cap melt – hee, hee, hee!
Chris.B.
You wait till the Aussies start tapping their natural gas recources. Then their economy will probably pick up a fair amount.
x
The Argentines are sitting huge reserves of shale oil/gas too. A lot easier to get at too than drilling platforms in the lumpy South Atlantic.
Simon
x,
I guess the Brazillian democratic/capitalist system would like a piece of that. Just join in a free market economy and spread those companies like a virus on the land – just like the west have done in the last 100 years.
x
@ Simon
With Brazil doing well to their north and Chile also doing well (big telecoms sector) Argentina is looking a bit like a joke. They need to tackle corruption first and not externalise their problems.
The best business book I have read was written by a Brazilian,
It seems that CSS units are going to face the brunt of the cuts, with some form of alternative use of reservists, contractors or even Allies to fill the gaps. I’m not personally convinced by that. It sounds “innovative”, but how will it work in practice? To take an Afghan example, it’s all very well getting the fuel delivered by a convoy of Spaniards or local contractors, but what happens when the Spanish are withdrawn or the Taliban put the frighteners on the local drivers? Also, how can NATO look serious come the next Libya when the Septics, the French and the Brits are all hung ho on providing combat aircraft, but no one steps forward to provide the logistics? It will put weeks into force generation and make us less effective. Will need to wait to see the details.
Loggy units are much easier to cut than famous old cap badges though. Politics at work.
I’d like to see a strong and forward-poised Army, but not at the expense of having no tail at all. I’d also like to see the Army balanced in relation to the Andrew, the Kevins and what our nation wants the Armed Services to achieve in all domains. If that means cutting some teeth arm Regiments to save a General Support CSS Regiment, then so be it If it means the Army cutting numbers in order to give the Kevins some critical capability, then so be it as well.
I can’t believe I am publicly supporting the Kevins, but there we go.
Observer
What I question, James is “Is it a false savings?”. Sure, you save up front on equipment and personel pay, but by contracting, will you end up paying more than if you did it yourself? One thing I know, outside contractors don’t usually come cheap.
And better some lost regiments through cuts than loss of aircover AND losing the same regiments through Mr Clusterbomb.
Conspicuous absence of any boats on order from BAE…
ArmChairCivvy
Hi James,
RE “I was not the only one dis-quieted about Argentine officers being part of the Joint staff Course.” Which two countries could ever be closer: The Brits built the railways for them, they play rugby, and our Royals run away with their horse polo players…
Except the country where horse polo came from: RM training theirs, a nice lot of hovercrafts sent (=sold) over, and three days before the defence treaty with “Trucial States” is over, the buggers (just trained and kitted out) take the strategic islands, which, according to the letter of the Treaty would have put Britain at war with them… and this was before the mullahs
ArmChairCivvy
Hi PE, RE Nigeria “Conspicuous absence of any boats on order from BAE…”
- not so with other providers
- the latest is some fast Israeli attack/ interceptor boats, but actually built in South Africa (whether already delivered… don’t know)
James
This is some crazy stuff. I’m not sure if it is genius, or completely barking mad.
Wing Effect mini-plane hovercraft. I reckon the fellers from Poole will want dozens of these. Scale it up to carry a lightweight wagon and 8-12 troops and have several of these coming out of the back of Albion and we’ve got a winner…. or not!
Hand launched loitering munition for infantry company use. 30 minutes loiter time and 4 miles data link range, which sounds quite useful. I am completely amazed that the video editing by Textron is so cheesy, but put that aside and the idea is a good one, unless the enemy have got 12 bores, in which case it could be like a scene from a grouse moor on the Glorious 12th. I suspect, so long as it can get up to about 200m and stay there, it would probably be pretty difficult to shoot down even with a GPMG, and certainly consume valuable resources while the company commander is doing his ISTAR and planning the company attack.
The thought strikes me it would also be quite useful strapped onto the side of one of the Andrew’s finest for doing boarding operations, particularly anti-piracy. It does armed overwatch for 30 minutes, and if all goes well it flies back to the ship and crashes into the netting for reuse. If things get nasty, it goes all vertical and takes out the pirate skiff.
Had the same idea regarding hydrofoils too, unfortunately it seems like ground effect vehicles have a very low weight limit.
As for the UAV, why not just arm the damn thing with a 3GL tube? 20,000 pounds for a flying one use missile seems a bit steep when you can use it in a way for reusability, and 1-2×3 40mm is a decent payload.
Topman
for those interested in typhoon, rumours at the moment is that the twin sticker trainers will be the version cut sooner rather than later.
paul g
also in typhoon news business section of mail on sunday (what? i get it for the tv magazine!) has a feature on BAe going back in for the indian contract, revised prices, and the infamous “seaphoon” is mentioned as well.
Hardly a sympathetic write up, but the MoD still knows how to shoot itself in the foot.
ArmChairCivvy
Hi ToC,
Though this is not from FN (in your link), I think it puts the right idea forward
“Development of the SCAR series stemmed from a United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) requirement for a new family of combat assault rifles designed around two different calibres but featuring high commonality of parts and identical ergonomics.”
- calibre is like the ink cartridge in your printer (well, they do have space for both at the same time, that’s the difference): is this job to be done in B&W or colour
- in that, a 5.56 MG or one firing short 7.62 would stand for the option of shades of Gray, or whatever the intermediate option is called in the Microsoft world
Observer
@ACC
Problem is that both rounds are for the same job, it’s not talking about 5.56/7.62 NATO, it’s about 5.56 NATO and 7.62S. 7.62 NATO is a MG/Sniper round. 7.62S is simply the round used in the AK, which is analogous to the round used in the M-16 (5.56mm SS109 ball?)
ArmChairCivvy
Hi Observer,
Yes, “it’s not talking about 5.56/7.62 NATO, it’s about 5.56 NATO and 7.62S. 7.62 NATO is a MG/Sniper round.”
- I wanted to bring that effort/ focus (not by FN trying to do it, but by the customer expressing what would be ideal)into a more general view
- go low: 5.56 MGs
- go middle: 7.62 (short round, don’t restrict your thinking to NATO only!)
- go long: well, the round that has lived for more than a century by now, must be OK then, just that the MG and the rest of the squad can never share… NEXT question: in what kind of circumstances would that matter (let’s assume the snipers always carry their own, so that is out of the consideration… you misunderstood my quote of one shot – one kill the last time we were here)
Jed
Observer at 1306
Sorry matey, this sounds like your a little confused:
“7.62 NATO is a MG/Sniper round. 7.62S is simply the round used in the AK, which is analogous to the round used in the M-16 (5.56mm SS109 ball?)”
7.62mm NATO is not a “round” at all, it is simply a caliber, which has been set as a NATO standard. It is also called 7.62 x 51, whithin that caliber there are many types of “round” including “ball”, armour piercing etc – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO
The 7.62mm Russian caliber used by the AK is, as such not analogous to the 5.56mm used in the M16. It is actually 7.62 x 39 caliber and thus is bigger than any 5.56mm – see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9739mm
The actual Russian analog to 5.56x45mm (NATO 5.56mm) is the 5.45x39mm used in later Russian assault weapons such as the AK74 series.
So in any of these calibers you can have “rounds” or bullets that are optimised for a particular job, such as highly accurate bullets for the marksman / sniper role which are more expensive to manufacture than those that can be spat out in great volume by a machine gun
Observer
…
I’m not sure if you guys should be cursed as pedents or idiots…
@ACC
You seem to love the latest tech toys, regardless of utility. The SCAR switches between 7.62S and the 5.56 NATO round, not the 7.62 NATO, which means all you are doing is switching from the NATO intermediate round for ARs to the Soviet intermediate round for ARs. You’re NOT switching to a sniper round, just assault rifle for assault rifle. And since in any campaign, SOMEONE should have brought enough ammo, then the chances of you using enemy ammo types is very low. For SF types, maybe the chances are higher since they pack light, but for line units, it’s more a novelty than actual practical use. Ask any of the other people serving, like James and Phil about the utility of this. I’m fairly sure their opinion will parallel mine.
@Jed
Calibre is a measurement, not an object. Proper english demands that you state what object you are describing with the measurement after it.
For example 25mm. 25mm of what? There is the 25mm shell, or the experimental 25mm grenade. So going 5.56 NATO round is not wrong, just being specific as well as proper english.
“The 7.62mm Russian caliber used by the AK is, as such not analogous to the 5.56mm”
And you think people don’t compare the AK-47 with the M-16 on a one on one basis as the primary assault rifles of NATO and the Warsaw Pact? This includes acknowledging that the 2 rounds are effectively used for the same function. (And not that they can be shoved into the same chamber as you seem to think).
I’ve been on night shift for a few days straight, so I’m too sleepy to call you names like you deserve, so do me a favour and call yourself names will you? I’ll try to catch more sleep and insult you later.
Got to really start an anti-war rally with the government Phil, getting into Afganistan was bad enough, but going against grannies with handbags? Horrors! The casualties are going to be awful, those old ladies don’t pull punches.
@ACC
I know those calibers were developed very early in the Cold War, I was around when they were most used too (Vietnam/Korea). I was even in service when the discussion of changing from M185 to SS109 (think it was called FM109 then, speculations being that the new round would be FMJed) came up.
On the other hand, the SCAR (Special ops Combat Assault Rifle) is very recent and suffer from lack of sales with only a single buyer on record, the US SOC.
If you’re still going to fire 5.56 anyway, why not just stick with what you already have?
Save the Budgets! Due to human overconsumption Budget natural habitats are being destroyed at an alarming rate, if nothing is done soon, Budgets will become extinct!
FN SCAR 7.62 doesn’t use normal (as opposed to Russian) 7.62? WTF?
Observer, we’ve got the runt of the litter in this one. No wonder others said is was all a bit pants. There’s me labouring under the misapprehension that it was my old SLR slightly warmed over and come back again after the madness of the 90′s with the 5.56 love. Obblocks.
Looks as though we could have gone straight back to the 1960s drill handbook as well with SCAR, instead of the fancy nonsense with changing arms and not being able to ground the weapon properly. And the ten pence piece in the magazine to make a sexy rattle on the present? Double Obblocks.
Think they do have a 7.62 NATO one, along the lines of “you want one, we’ll build it for you.”
Did some checking up, joke is that SOCOM now doesn’t want 5.56, it has M-4s for that, they only want the 7.62 NATO one now.
So yes, you new love is safe.
James
I am going to emigrate immediately to the most permissive gun law state in the USA and buy a FN SCAR in 7.62mm (proper 7.62, not whatever Ivan used to shoot). You can all come and visit me and shoot beer cans from the back yard.
It’s like getting married all over again, except with weapons, but probably less sex.
Does FN do a bayonet attachment for the SCAR, or do I have to make my own with black nasty tape?
Observer
“It’s like getting married all over again, except with weapons, but probably less sex.”
Well… the barrel has a hole… depends on your stamina I guess.
And I’m so saving this post for your daughter when she’s 18
Off wiki
“A variant of the SCAR was entered into the Army’s Individual Carbine competition, known as the FNAC (advanced carbine). The weapon is similar to the SCAR Mk 16 but with modifications including a .3 lb weight reduction, a bayonet lug for an M9 bayonet”
So yes bayonet, but it’ll have to be the carbine version. Or maybe you might like nasty black tape? Adds a bit of kinky to it.
X,
doing something and then letting OPFOR get all of the wrong ideas is part of the recce thinking. I’m sorry if you copped the flak!
@ James
I am busy burning all my books on the Cod Wars and USN/Soviet naval coming togethers during the Cold War. Plus all the other books I have that recount relations less than war at sea between states.
And soon as I have finished I am off on to campus to burn any books or journal articles that mention Argentine and Chile rapprochement because they are obviously talking bullshit.
After that I might have to start on books on Nazi Germany because the very idea that a small bunch of nutjobs can actually wield power over a whole nation, the majority of which doesn’t really support them and just wants to get on with life, and make the armed forces of aforementioned nation do stoooopid things well that is a daft idea.
I can’t believe I am being lectured on voting by somebody who lives in de-facto one party state that thinks banning free speech is a good idea.
One final thing. I have got Call Me Dave to sack William Hague and just give the job to some random bod who has done a tour of Afghanistan.
Would you like some vinegar for those chips?
touched a nerve ?
@x
Got it the other way round. You get voting one party states only after you mastered power structures. If you have strong opposition obviously you need to learn how to practice the “James Manuver” more.
And you can keep burning your books. I knew a girl from Argentina, so unless you have a closer source, I’d postit that I actually have a closer “grassroots” level look at the country than you do.
“I can’t believe I am being lectured on voting by somebody who lives in de-facto one party state that thinks banning free speech is a good idea.”
That from someone who thinks Singapore has “foilage”.
250 square km. 5 million people. You do the maths. And think how much damage a riot caused by a loudmouth with less brains than common sense can cause in an area with that population density.
Yes.
X and Observer,
the little trick comes in handy, but sometimes to beneficial effects. You can let the mother of your children take all of the heartache and whining of the two little darlings being forced to have a symbolic sprig of broccoli on their plates for the Sunday lunch, and then distract everyone with some sleight of hand and pointing to some pre-positioned oddity in the corner of the dining room, while quietly removing and eating the sprigs of broccoli. It really works well if Mrs J is part of the conspiracy, and it works even better than that if the children are also part of the conspiracy, but don’t know that Mrs J is, and Mrs J also not knowing that the children are in on it.
After that, you take the children out on their ponies and make sure they soak up some sunshine, and force an apple down them for the vitamins. And later, you take Mrs J to bed and give her a right royal Jubilee seeing to. Everyone’s happy that way.
Now, if only the business was doing so well…
Too busy burning all my political theory books…
x
Indeed, his nickname is (was?) ‘the cowboy’ and is a good example of the unstable/odd part of her cabinet, I am no expert on S.American politics… perhaps its as common as the punch ups we see in the eastern europe regions, but the past histories of the men in power over there are just as questionable as the neighbours. Thugs in suits, and can be just as stupid as thugs.
But what is clear is that the Argentine people who think instead of shouting in this are rather more level on their approach; a group of leading Argentine academics writing to the government to not harp on about/distract with the 1982 conflict went by largely un-noticed in the media a few months back, apart from Al Beeb.
Perhaps they’ve long since burned their books? ;D
My Argentine teacher freind always tells me “…it’ll happen when they pay me on time…” aka a snowball’s chance in S.Afghanistan.
Meanwhile their military has been rather quiet, no words nor moves; either thats something to be a little disconcerted about, or perhaps there are still men from ’82 that remember and have sense. Not that they have any assets to use other than bugging around with their Navy/Aviation, both of which we can counter (hells bells, the ’45 could do both…)
Mike,
I’m sure that among many officers (I’m well out of it now, but some are still serving), I was not the only one dis-quieted about Argentine officers being part of the Joint staff Course. One from each of their services. Didn’t feel right at all, despite the fact that individually they were all nice fellers. The Airman had a quarter in Bracknell a bit diagonal from ours, and I remember his young boy falling off his bike in front of me and losing his front teeth on the tarmac – there’s only a human empathy when you pick him up and take him to his parents’ front door, and the mother is in tears of concern and probably some gratitude.
@ Mike
It isn’t the quiet majority who worry me it is the vocal minority. It wouldn’t take a fleet to cause trouble. The Presidency doesn’t exist in a vacuum there has to be some residual support.
Anyway what I do know?
@ James
That is the sad thing though isn’t it? Both our countries have such a long history of friendship.
Heck like all our cloest friends “we” have been to war with them and had a bit of shoeing at their hands.
It isn’t the Argentine people but their crackpot president with whom I have problem.
At least it’ll blow over soon. At the rate she’s making herself look stupid, dogmatic and ineffectual, she’s bound to be out of a job soon.
Idiot presidents last 1 term, countries last a lot longer. Give it time to blow over.
As far as I see it many of the South American countries exist on a knife-edge between corruption and democracy. This added to the need to “bond” creates some interesting allegiances. I doubt this is what the majority of the people want but we’re talking about people who are in the back of beyond of Patagonia or struggling to survive in the Darien Gap.
How long do you think it’s going to take before a South American Alliance really will call the shots in the South Atlantic?
What’s the general consensus for the future of South America (since I really do not see Argentina standing alone for much longer)?
@ Observer
Yes countries do last longer. This is country that should be as wealthy as Australia and with attendant living standards and infrastructure.
Shame really.
“How long do you think it’s going to take before a South American Alliance really will call the shots in the South Atlantic?”
Not too long. It’s the next thing on the list after “melting the poles”.
@X
Richer. Australia’s biodiversity and resources, while fairly unique, is also rather poor, most of the continent is desert and scrubland, not so for Argentina, it’s located in one of the most prolific areas in the world. Which makes it’s condition even worse.
I’ve always argued that “democracy” is a system of government for medium-high developed countries, simply chucking “democracy” into a country doesn’t work, you need the educated middle class first before it can grow. Can you imagine people living hand to mouth asking to vote? Is it that much of a stretch to see the golden opportunity to gain power by greasing a few palms? In poorer countries, “democracy” and “capitalism” almost always go together, to the detriment of the country.
Of course, dictatorship isn’t sainthood either.
Observer,
With the amount of water that’s been falling here in the last couple of months I’d guess the poles must already have melted
As soon as UNASUR manage to create a true single market the “Brazillian effect” should grow exponentially, this will then mean the burning of a lot of fossil fuels (like China) and help speed up the ice cap melt – hee, hee, hee!
You wait till the Aussies start tapping their natural gas recources. Then their economy will probably pick up a fair amount.
The Argentines are sitting huge reserves of shale oil/gas too. A lot easier to get at too than drilling platforms in the lumpy South Atlantic.
x,
I guess the Brazillian democratic/capitalist system would like a piece of that. Just join in a free market economy and spread those companies like a virus on the land – just like the west have done in the last 100 years.
@ Simon
With Brazil doing well to their north and Chile also doing well (big telecoms sector) Argentina is looking a bit like a joke. They need to tackle corruption first and not externalise their problems.
The best business book I have read was written by a Brazilian,
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Maverick-Success-Behind-Unusual-Workplace/dp/0712678867
Forget that Apprentice programme. That is harsh as I have never seen it.
A little more detail on the forthcoming announcement of the plans to cut the Army to 82,000
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18350358
It seems that CSS units are going to face the brunt of the cuts, with some form of alternative use of reservists, contractors or even Allies to fill the gaps. I’m not personally convinced by that. It sounds “innovative”, but how will it work in practice? To take an Afghan example, it’s all very well getting the fuel delivered by a convoy of Spaniards or local contractors, but what happens when the Spanish are withdrawn or the Taliban put the frighteners on the local drivers? Also, how can NATO look serious come the next Libya when the Septics, the French and the Brits are all hung ho on providing combat aircraft, but no one steps forward to provide the logistics? It will put weeks into force generation and make us less effective. Will need to wait to see the details.
Loggy units are much easier to cut than famous old cap badges though. Politics at work.
I’d like to see a strong and forward-poised Army, but not at the expense of having no tail at all. I’d also like to see the Army balanced in relation to the Andrew, the Kevins and what our nation wants the Armed Services to achieve in all domains. If that means cutting some teeth arm Regiments to save a General Support CSS Regiment, then so be it If it means the Army cutting numbers in order to give the Kevins some critical capability, then so be it as well.
I can’t believe I am publicly supporting the Kevins, but there we go.
What I question, James is “Is it a false savings?”. Sure, you save up front on equipment and personel pay, but by contracting, will you end up paying more than if you did it yourself? One thing I know, outside contractors don’t usually come cheap.
And better some lost regiments through cuts than loss of aircover AND losing the same regiments through Mr Clusterbomb.
BBC article about Nigerian navy patrol boats
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-18300358
Conspicuous absence of any boats on order from BAE…
Hi James,
RE “I was not the only one dis-quieted about Argentine officers being part of the Joint staff Course.” Which two countries could ever be closer: The Brits built the railways for them, they play rugby, and our Royals run away with their horse polo players…
Except the country where horse polo came from: RM training theirs, a nice lot of hovercrafts sent (=sold) over, and three days before the defence treaty with “Trucial States” is over, the buggers (just trained and kitted out) take the strategic islands, which, according to the letter of the Treaty would have put Britain at war with them… and this was before the mullahs
Hi PE, RE Nigeria “Conspicuous absence of any boats on order from BAE…”
- not so with other providers
- the latest is some fast Israeli attack/ interceptor boats, but actually built in South Africa (whether already delivered… don’t know)
This is some crazy stuff. I’m not sure if it is genius, or completely barking mad.
Wing Effect mini-plane hovercraft. I reckon the fellers from Poole will want dozens of these. Scale it up to carry a lightweight wagon and 8-12 troops and have several of these coming out of the back of Albion and we’ve got a winner…. or not!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwC8MP6uOiQ&feature=endscreen
Hand launched loitering munition for infantry company use. 30 minutes loiter time and 4 miles data link range, which sounds quite useful. I am completely amazed that the video editing by Textron is so cheesy, but put that aside and the idea is a good one, unless the enemy have got 12 bores, in which case it could be like a scene from a grouse moor on the Glorious 12th. I suspect, so long as it can get up to about 200m and stay there, it would probably be pretty difficult to shoot down even with a GPMG, and certainly consume valuable resources while the company commander is doing his ISTAR and planning the company attack.
The thought strikes me it would also be quite useful strapped onto the side of one of the Andrew’s finest for doing boarding operations, particularly anti-piracy. It does armed overwatch for 30 minutes, and if all goes well it flies back to the ship and crashes into the netting for reuse. If things get nasty, it goes all vertical and takes out the pirate skiff.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/military-robots/textrons-tram-is-the-suicidal-miniuav-youve-always-wanted
Had the same idea regarding hydrofoils too, unfortunately it seems like ground effect vehicles have a very low weight limit.
As for the UAV, why not just arm the damn thing with a 3GL tube? 20,000 pounds for a flying one use missile seems a bit steep when you can use it in a way for reusability, and 1-2×3 40mm is a decent payload.
for those interested in typhoon, rumours at the moment is that the twin sticker trainers will be the version cut sooner rather than later.
also in typhoon news business section of mail on sunday (what? i get it for the tv magazine!) has a feature on BAe going back in for the indian contract, revised prices, and the infamous “seaphoon” is mentioned as well.
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/money/markets/article-2156820/BAE-Systems-ready-bid-fighter-jet-deal-India.html
looks like the army-reform plans are starting to be leaked:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9322727/Armys-manning-chief-infuriates-troops-with-Service-transfer-quip.html
FN Herstel adding to their SCAR range with the TPR:
– http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/eurosatory-2012-fn-herstal-launches-new-tactical-r/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9322727/Armys-manning-chief-infuriates-troops-with-Service-transfer-quip.html
Hardly a sympathetic write up, but the MoD still knows how to shoot itself in the foot.
Hi ToC,
Though this is not from FN (in your link), I think it puts the right idea forward
“Development of the SCAR series stemmed from a United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) requirement for a new family of combat assault rifles designed around two different calibres but featuring high commonality of parts and identical ergonomics.”
- calibre is like the ink cartridge in your printer (well, they do have space for both at the same time, that’s the difference): is this job to be done in B&W or colour
- in that, a 5.56 MG or one firing short 7.62 would stand for the option of shades of Gray, or whatever the intermediate option is called in the Microsoft world
@ACC
Problem is that both rounds are for the same job, it’s not talking about 5.56/7.62 NATO, it’s about 5.56 NATO and 7.62S. 7.62 NATO is a MG/Sniper round. 7.62S is simply the round used in the AK, which is analogous to the round used in the M-16 (5.56mm SS109 ball?)
Hi Observer,
Yes, “it’s not talking about 5.56/7.62 NATO, it’s about 5.56 NATO and 7.62S. 7.62 NATO is a MG/Sniper round.”
- I wanted to bring that effort/ focus (not by FN trying to do it, but by the customer expressing what would be ideal)into a more general view
- go low: 5.56 MGs
- go middle: 7.62 (short round, don’t restrict your thinking to NATO only!)
- go long: well, the round that has lived for more than a century by now, must be OK then, just that the MG and the rest of the squad can never share… NEXT question: in what kind of circumstances would that matter (let’s assume the snipers always carry their own, so that is out of the consideration… you misunderstood my quote of one shot – one kill the last time we were here)
Observer at 1306
Sorry matey, this sounds like your a little confused:
“7.62 NATO is a MG/Sniper round. 7.62S is simply the round used in the AK, which is analogous to the round used in the M-16 (5.56mm SS109 ball?)”
7.62mm NATO is not a “round” at all, it is simply a caliber, which has been set as a NATO standard. It is also called 7.62 x 51, whithin that caliber there are many types of “round” including “ball”, armour piercing etc – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO
The 7.62mm Russian caliber used by the AK is, as such not analogous to the 5.56mm used in the M16. It is actually 7.62 x 39 caliber and thus is bigger than any 5.56mm – see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9739mm
The actual Russian analog to 5.56x45mm (NATO 5.56mm) is the 5.45x39mm used in later Russian assault weapons such as the AK74 series.
So in any of these calibers you can have “rounds” or bullets that are optimised for a particular job, such as highly accurate bullets for the marksman / sniper role which are more expensive to manufacture than those that can be spat out in great volume by a machine gun
…
I’m not sure if you guys should be cursed as pedents or idiots…
@ACC
You seem to love the latest tech toys, regardless of utility. The SCAR switches between 7.62S and the 5.56 NATO round, not the 7.62 NATO, which means all you are doing is switching from the NATO intermediate round for ARs to the Soviet intermediate round for ARs. You’re NOT switching to a sniper round, just assault rifle for assault rifle. And since in any campaign, SOMEONE should have brought enough ammo, then the chances of you using enemy ammo types is very low. For SF types, maybe the chances are higher since they pack light, but for line units, it’s more a novelty than actual practical use. Ask any of the other people serving, like James and Phil about the utility of this. I’m fairly sure their opinion will parallel mine.
@Jed
Calibre is a measurement, not an object. Proper english demands that you state what object you are describing with the measurement after it.
For example 25mm. 25mm of what? There is the 25mm shell, or the experimental 25mm grenade. So going 5.56 NATO round is not wrong, just being specific as well as proper english.
“The 7.62mm Russian caliber used by the AK is, as such not analogous to the 5.56mm”
And you think people don’t compare the AK-47 with the M-16 on a one on one basis as the primary assault rifles of NATO and the Warsaw Pact? This includes acknowledging that the 2 rounds are effectively used for the same function. (And not that they can be shoved into the same chamber as you seem to think).
I’ve been on night shift for a few days straight, so I’m too sleepy to call you names like you deserve, so do me a favour and call yourself names will you? I’ll try to catch more sleep and insult you later.
Hi Observer,
Put a special link on the Littoral thread, for sweet dreams, just for you:
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs897.ash1/180508_1564865327326_1406175341_31271385_2502642_n.jpg
RE “You seem to love the latest tech toys, regardless of utility”
- BTW, the stuff I have been talking about in the caliber discussions was developed in the late 50s and early 60s (The Lapua discussions have been separate)
obbo mate, bit harsh, we’ve all been tired, go get your head down, you post good stuff on here don’t spoil it
Op Handbags is in force!
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/unmanned-us-navy-demonstrator-crashes-in-maryland-372890/
“Op Handbags is in force!”
What’s the code word? The code word damn you!
Got to really start an anti-war rally with the government Phil, getting into Afganistan was bad enough, but going against grannies with handbags? Horrors! The casualties are going to be awful, those old ladies don’t pull punches.
@ACC
I know those calibers were developed very early in the Cold War, I was around when they were most used too (Vietnam/Korea). I was even in service when the discussion of changing from M185 to SS109 (think it was called FM109 then, speculations being that the new round would be FMJed) came up.
On the other hand, the SCAR (Special ops Combat Assault Rifle) is very recent and suffer from lack of sales with only a single buyer on record, the US SOC.
If you’re still going to fire 5.56 anyway, why not just stick with what you already have?
Save the Budgets! Due to human overconsumption Budget natural habitats are being destroyed at an alarming rate, if nothing is done soon, Budgets will become extinct!
Chris, I think it is
‘Broadsword Calling Danny Boy’
But keep it under your hat
FN SCAR 7.62 doesn’t use normal (as opposed to Russian) 7.62? WTF?
Observer, we’ve got the runt of the litter in this one. No wonder others said is was all a bit pants. There’s me labouring under the misapprehension that it was my old SLR slightly warmed over and come back again after the madness of the 90′s with the 5.56 love. Obblocks.
Looks as though we could have gone straight back to the 1960s drill handbook as well with SCAR, instead of the fancy nonsense with changing arms and not being able to ground the weapon properly. And the ten pence piece in the magazine to make a sexy rattle on the present? Double Obblocks.
The table at the end.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/usa/fn-mk16-mk17-scar-e.html
@James
Think they do have a 7.62 NATO one, along the lines of “you want one, we’ll build it for you.”
Did some checking up, joke is that SOCOM now doesn’t want 5.56, it has M-4s for that, they only want the 7.62 NATO one now.
So yes, you new love is safe.
I am going to emigrate immediately to the most permissive gun law state in the USA and buy a FN SCAR in 7.62mm (proper 7.62, not whatever Ivan used to shoot). You can all come and visit me and shoot beer cans from the back yard.
It’s like getting married all over again, except with weapons, but probably less sex.
Does FN do a bayonet attachment for the SCAR, or do I have to make my own with black nasty tape?
“It’s like getting married all over again, except with weapons, but probably less sex.”
Well… the barrel has a hole… depends on your stamina I guess.
And I’m so saving this post for your daughter when she’s 18
Off wiki
“A variant of the SCAR was entered into the Army’s Individual Carbine competition, known as the FNAC (advanced carbine). The weapon is similar to the SCAR Mk 16 but with modifications including a .3 lb weight reduction, a bayonet lug for an M9 bayonet”
So yes bayonet, but it’ll have to be the carbine version. Or maybe you might like nasty black tape? Adds a bit of kinky to it.