Think Defence hopes to start sensible conversations about UK defence issues, no agenda or no campaign but there might be one or two posts on containers, bridges and mexeflotes!
Moon has to be seen to be neutral I don’t think anybody cares really about what he says.
I once said here that apparently one of the (minor) drivers for the 82 war was to keep the Soviets out of the islands harbours. But regulars who thought they new better poured scorn on that fact.
ArmChairCivvy
x,
You are right, it was still the time when the Soviet navy was going full throttle to become a global force.
Funnily enough they also owned an island with a “dairy farm” bang in the middle of Hong Kong harbour (the gvmnt then used compulsary powers to buy the island for “development”).
A year ago Putin announced that there will be two foreign bases, but the other one (in addition to Syria) has not come to the fore yet (take 50% off all of their announcements is a good rule of thumb anyway)
x
@ ACC
Yes. The Argentines would have been caught between a rock and a hard place. They would have had to secure the islands from prying Western eyes. But would have been unable to ask the Soviets to leave because of lack of diplomatic support.
ArmChairCivvy
3.000 is one mighty observer force (presumably driving around in white-painted AFVs for their own safety); the Telegraph today
” the conflict in Syria enters its eleventh month, having so far claimed an estimated 5,400 lives, the Arab League talked on Sunday about amassing a force of up to 3,000 observers to halt violence. Arabi told ministers he had already proposed the idea to the UN General Secretary.
Arab ministers are meanwhile engaged in intensive talks with Russia and China in the hope they can encourage Bashar Assad to allow peacekeeping forces into the country.”
ArmChairCivvy
AOL news “Taxpayers’ to keep Bombardier sweet?
The taxpayer may be set to dig deep again – up to £80m – to help subsidise the Bombardier train plant in Derby. Bombardier is actually now a Canadian-owned company but Bombardier has made the future…”
- BAE tactics, but wasn’t thinking of that, but rather the relative importance of sourcing train vs. key defence equipment onshore… and what should be worth a subsidy
ArmChairCivvy
NAO has now published an overview (2011) of its work on MoD, an excerpt from p.7
“In our report on the Major Projects Report 2009, we found that the Department had a future funding gap of between £6 billion and £36 billion in its equipment programme. In March 2011, the House of Commons Defence Committee explored this issue further, noting that the NAO estimate does not reflect the fact that the Department will now meet the full cost of paying for the successor nuclear deterrent programme (some £8 billion), nor does it reflect the judgement by the new Chief of Defence Materiel, Bernard Gray, that a further £5.5 billion should be added to the overall cost of the equipment programme.2(=foot note for dating the latter piece of information)”
So this famous gap, so aptly used to communicate a political agenda is “anything between 6 and 36″ NOT including the book transfer from Treasury to MoD of 8bn, on top of it.
- the small uplift (estimated to be a good 3bn cumulatively between 2015 and 2020) only covers the long-lead items within the above sum of 8 bn (but not the design work that was on-going before the SDSR)
I all fairness Bernard Gray going from general risk buffers across the board to better estimates, by programme, must be taken to be within that liberal “error tolerance” of £ 20bn
dominicj
its like talking to a child it really is.
You are such a coward
ArmChairCivvy
The rule I follow with “its like talking to a child it really is.” is to give up
- have to breach the rule when it is with my own, though
Phil
Are you talking to me?
How does pointing out that the US is part of NATO and that ISAF is a NATO body make me a child or coward? You’re mistaking me for one of your decrepit and petty local politic opponents Dom.
x
@ Phil re in Turmoil
Well I am a bit of in awe of what you used to do.
As for being in Turmoil it at least shows me you aren’t an officer as you know where you are…..
Phil
Steady now we’ll be sending Xmas cards soon.
Dont be awe. Any fool can sign up for adventure and march off cheerfully and unsuspectingly to misery. Believe me if I knew what waited for me I wouldn’t have been so keen!
Experiences are never as we imagined they would be. What was the biggest difference between what you imagined soldiering to be and reality?
@ Dunservin
Good idea. Never thought to do that!!
Phil
The complete and utter violence and spitefulness of it all. You think you imagine it well beforehand. But you don’t. And the paradox is at first it’s awesome. A rush. But after sustained bouts of it, it breaks you. It’s very hard to put across the violence though. Films show gore but you can’t feel that punch in your chest as a shock wave from a soldier detonating an IED in front of you hits. And the horrendous smell.
So the violence. It’s stupefying. Which sounds an odd thing to say but you just don’t appreciate how awful it is going to be before you go away.
Think Defence
Good shout Dunservin
Phil
I signed up a few months ago. You get a magazine etc. quite interesting the boats and how they operate.
x
@ TD
Should take what Phil has just written and find a place for it on your home page.
I believe the expression you soldiers use “It has got a but dusty in here” so I am off for some fresh air, to sit with my birds, and contemplate it all.
Phil
Oh god don’t do that! I had a soppy moment! The birds at Khar Nikah were very peaceful. I used to sit and listen to them when I had a moment and smoke my pipe (an idea I got from Pacific!!). The thing is, and it’s obvious now, but it’s deadly silent when nothing is going on. Almost like you’ve gone deaf. Incredibly peaceful when there isn’t an A10 constantly strafing!
Brian Black
“the us is activly trying to strip uk territory”
Still don’t know what that means.
Iraq and Afghanistan are very much British wars. We made our stand ‘shoulder-to-shoulder’ with the Americans. The UK strenuously made the arguments to the international community – at the Security Council table as well as touring individual countries. And we have often declared our interests in respect to the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US does not order us to be there, or set the scale of our commitment – and specifically in relation to Iraq, the US told Blair prior to war that invasion could be done without British forces and that the UK could choose only to participate in a less controversial, post-war, stabilization force if that were his wish.
Observer
@Phil
I pity you about the smell, I’m in the medical field, morgue, accidents et al and that damn internal organs smell is something I could never get used to. Endure yes, but damn it stinks really bad.
For pay matters as a Singaporean reservist, you guys are going to love this. You’re not paid. lol. Since conscription is universal for guys, you’re going to be trained even if you don’t like it.
For the TA, it seems that the monetary incentive is required to encourage people to sign up, but since Singapore has no need to “encourage”, there is really no need to spend more money to do something that is an obligation by law. When you’re not activated, you live on your civilian pay like everyone else. The SAF only pays you when you are activated one month a year for training, which is a classic case of left pocket/right pocket. An income tax of 7-8% collected by the government which is close to the 1/12 of a year pay they need to pay you when they activate you for a month. This essentially means you’re paying for your own army service, and overall cost to the government is close to nil other than equipment cost. Sneaky bastards.
Employment protection is by law. Companies are not allowed to fire staff due to National Service. Most companies are not too upset about it, there is sometimes a slight staff shortfall, but the tradeoff is them getting army disciplined workers, which they see as incredibly helpful in solving tardiness and getting staff that can take a fair degree of bullshit and still keep their cool. (I said “keep their cool”, not “they won’t bitch about it”… ). Those companies that don’t like it just carry on as much as they can. Authoritarian government, no point arguing with them, they’ll listen… then do what they want to do anyway. Which has pros and cons but that’s a different topic.
So that was pay and employment protection covered. Anything anyone want to ask? Just go ahead, I’ll try to answer best I can.
paul g
anyone watch royals in afghanistan last night? It’s been a good few programmes already, but concentrating on how they were getting the people back into the villages was superb viewing, the RN translator known as alexander the great by the locals was just enspiring. Right at the end a welsh guard sgt summed it all upsaying his friends and CO who died would’ve been pleased to know “they hadn’t been pissing in the wind” it was a very dusty eye moment.
Sums up all phil has been saying, just because there’s no d-day style push back, it the small victories of towns and markets re-opening that show we are winning
IXION
Paul G
Its scotch mist mate, all this re building work lasts as long as we are there. 10 mins after we are gone the Taliban;-
You know; the ‘good’ ones we are negotiating with, not the ‘bad’ ones the Afghan govt are negotiating with; Nor the ‘who the F*ck are they’ ones who actually have an office in Bahrain now* will appear; take over at gun point and start blowing up everything and every one that is ‘Un-Islamic’
Every British soldier who has died in Afghan has died for sweet f’all. And has done since the day The US decided to back off when we and they had the Taliban on the run and go and try and sort out Iraq. There are still people who owe me money over bets I had about how they would be back if we did not finish them off.
* How does that work? Can’t see Google proudly announcing it has the IT fro terrorist award of the year for providing the computers, Staples aint going to post about their new blast proof office furniture as used by the Taliban..
B Black
Iraq and Afghan would have happened without us.
Our political masters decided for some inexplicable, but seriously F*ckwit reason we needed:-
A £10 billion drain on our economy,
To piss off even more some thoroughly evil types,
Tear up a perfectly good military reputation,
Oh and get several thousand of our soldiers killed and injured,
If that makes it a British war Ok. In my book it makes it a US war we invited ourselves too.
Phil
If you have ‘been there’ then respects.
However I still cannot see what is balanced about your force levels or what you intend to achieve with them…
Good joke on Dave last night about history’s shorted war. UK V Zanzibar Z surrendered after 30odd minutes.
‘ Well one tiny little insignificant Island with a glorious past and ideas above it’s station… Still we managed to kick Zanzibars Arse on that occasion’….
ArmChairCivvy
IXION,
Out by 80%; guess which way?” £10 billion drain on our economy”
Did you get Luton and Afghanistan, the latter as in the future, mixed up too?
Now that I’ve proved that I watch tellie, what do you read, to get your weird and wonderful facts from?
Think Defence
Thats a pretty bleak assessment Ixion, are things ever as black and white as that
IXION
ACC
Agreed cost of Iraq at least £4.5 billion.
Afghan anything from £2.5 to £12 billion depending on who you listen to or how you slice it.
So we can say between ‘only’ £7 billion to £19 billion shall we.
TD Yep it’s pretty bleak.
I keep asking what does victory in afghan look like. (And I do not accept just saying ‘we’ve won lets go home’).
Current plan is to leave the field of battle in the hands of the enemy- that’s a defeat.
When you include the
‘Singapore lite’
Basra experience the whole Iraq/Afghan adventure has been total folly.
‘They died to install a murderous corrupt regime in Kabul, and for the people that killed them to be invited into govt as soon as they left’.
Coming to a memorial near you soon.
Phil
Must be imagining the ANA and ANP and ALP. The enemy are criminals on the most part. Not everyone in Afghan is a murderous destructive bastard just itching to destroy everything when we leave. Most just want to get on with it. They’re normal human beings who value peace and security. When we leave the insurgency will be weakened again as what little nationalistic element there is to it is undermined by the lack of the foreigner.
IXION
Phill
The enemy are people prepared to kill and be killed for their beliefs. Criminal or not.
BTW Criminals is what the US called the VC, we called the IRA, and the Nazi’s called the Russian Partisans……
The Afghan civil war* will ultimately result in the defeat of Kazi or at the very least the incorporation more or less at gunpoint of significant Taliban elements in an Islamic govt largely hostile to the west.
As for the alphabet soup of security forces left behind by us. The history of such things (with one or two honourable exceptions), is that they melt away faster than a politicians manifesto promises, after he’s won the election. Once the money stops and the occupying/ allied forces aren’t there to do the heavy work.
*(Pencil it in your diary as The great military social occasion for 2014 simply anyone who is anyone will be invited: Iraq Pakistan, India Iran Saudi Arabia:- US UK west in general will manufacture a subsequent social engagement and will have to decline gracefully. Russia won’t have made it’s mind up yet).
Phil
“The enemy are people prepared to kill and be killed for their beliefs. Criminal or not.”
Right, so a group of ferral youths in this country who kick to death an old man do so because of their beliefs? What a load of shit. When I say criminals, I mean criminals. I mean common thugs. I don’t mean Jihadists, although they certainly exploit them, I mean criminals pure and simple.
And I’m not arguing the rest with you.
You’ve obviously made up your mind there’s no point.
x
Is Afghanistan as stable as Iraq before the US left?
Think Defence
Can we look at this with an eye on the perfect outcome?
Not sure we can
We don’t want a stable nation with hot and cold running wimmins rights
What we want is just enough stability so that a even a semi friendly nation can emerge that doesn’t allow or at least keeps the lid on outward bound terrorist schools.
I tend to agree that it was a strategic mistake to drop the Afghanistan ball and go an play in Iraq which cost us dear but you have to finish what you started, even if you end up with less than you hoped
All Politicians are the Same
@TD Agree a win is an Afghanistan that does not return to being a safe haven for terrorists. Anything else is the cherry on the icing on the cake.
x
Given that Pakistan with 500,000 men under arms can’t control the Hindu Kush and the sheer scale of geography how can we possibly believe that Afghanistan will be able to prevent “terrorists” setting up there again?
Further surely it is contrary to talk of discrete terror cells and distributed terror networks on one hand and then talk about attacking territory or destroying physical infrastructure on the other?
Phil
“@TD Agree a win is an Afghanistan that does not return to being a safe haven for terrorists. Anything else is the cherry on the icing on the cake.”
Thank God someone on the same page!
And x the key is in the detail. One cannot guarantee that terrorists won’t try and set up there again. But what we can have, is a Government that won’t tolerate that and harass them and allow us to go and get them if needs be.
Afghanistan must become hostile to such an organisation. Not harbour, nurture and protect it like it did.
IXION
Phill
It is the rest that needs arguing.
I have indeed made my mind up.
I made it the day Tony Blair (of blessed memory), decide we needed to got to War.
My mind said:-
1) Why? what’s in for us?
2) The US is going to do this anyway.
3) This is going to cost us blood and treasure.
4) After all our last Afghan adventures went well didn’t they.
5) The Russians were just back from an Afghan holiday with lots of pictures and souvenirs (like a war in the Caucasus). They said it was pants as well.
When we bought off the locals, deployed John Simpson, fought of the Taliban die hards, and looked like we might just pull it off;
My mind asked:-
‘WTF are we doing turning our backs on this and starting another war next door. The whole war on 2 fronts thing generally does not go well. The bastards will be back in months if we do not only stomp them, but keep stomping them. So that the ordinary decent Afghans can see they are stomped and stop being afraid of the Knock in the night.
MY Mind told me that we no longer had the anti to play high stakes poker in Iraq and Basra proved that.
My mind told me trying to control Helmund with 3 guys and a dog was stupid.
My Mind told me there were striking parallels with Vietnam.
1) Insecure border over which rebels could come and go at will
2) Safe havens on other side of border they could retreat to supported by at least elements of that state.
3) At least a core of supporters on the ground.
4) Corrupt murderous regime installed by outside powers. Lacking general support
5) No functioning state apparatus forcing people into tribal support arrangements. leaving no strong believe or reliance on the ‘Free state’.
6) Strong driving ideology (in this case a religion)
7) General hatred of the foreign invader and all his works.
8)Insufficient troops on the ground, over-reliance on technology.
9) Funding from outside backers for weapons etc.
In fact the only real difference is that Vietnam tends to be wetter with more trees.
My mind told me we were in the shit.
And NOTHING that has happened since:-
All the dead bodies,
All the maimed heroes,
And most of all my mind tells me.
ALL the announcements that
‘This year is really it we got them on the run boys the ANA are finally up to it …yad yada yada
ARE UNMITIGATED BOLLOCKS
So please Phill. I will retract all of the above, I will tell my mind
‘You know what you got it wrong old bean’.
If you will deign to answer these questions:-
Why did we go to Afghan wen the yanks would have done it without us?
Why did we go to Iraq? when the Yanks offered to do it without us.
What were supposed to achieve originally in Afghan?
And finally
‘WHAT WILL VICTORY LOOK LIKE IN AFGHANISTAN IN 2014???*
* The answer
‘Well we get the deaths down to a ‘manageable level’ long enough for us to show some Journo’s round, say ‘look at this functioning state’; declare victory, piss off; then when it falls into a blood bath 2 years later; sigh and say ‘Well we tried’.
Is not acceptable. that’s is a defeat.
Phil
“I made it the day Tony Blair (of blessed memory), decide we needed to got to War.”
I got as far as that and I stopped reading your screed.
Who decided we went to war? Those fuckers that attacked the western world on September 11 2001 and all the previous pin pricks against us.
They decided on war. They wanted to provoke us into a general war on Islam.
They begged for war.
And they were fundamentally linked to Afghanistan.
IXION
OK
So general opinion(after all the blood and treasure) is:-
‘We win if Aghanistan is a medieval Muslim autocracy ruled by the gun, but they don’t let AK back’
£10 to the RNLI If by 2020 they are no harbouring terrorists.
TD to be the judge.
so
‘They died to make Al-Qaeda move to Sudan’
Is an acceptable memorial.
Phil
“‘We win if Aghanistan is a medieval Muslim autocracy ruled by the gun, but they don’t let AK back’”
It’s not hard to grasp mate.
All Politicians are the Same
Ixion, should have stopped reading when you said, the US would have done it without us! Maybe you want to hide behind big brother but most of us do not and I speak as someone who has been there and seen the difference.
As for what we have achieved, we have taken away the safe haven that allowed planning and training for spectacular attacks on the western world.
George Orwell sums it up nicely “We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” Sleep well Ixion.
IXION
Phil
So Al-Q declared war on the west fine.
I would have sent British brigade in alongside the
French
German
Italian
Spanish
Portuguese
Danish
Dutch
Polish
Hungarian
Bulgarian
Romanian
Greek
and Turks (after all they are in Nato and want into the EC).
And I do mean fighting brigades; not some units who don’t go out at night or who’s rules of engagement, prevent effective operation.
But I repeat the US would have done it anyway,so why did we go?
Phil
Why did we go? It’s called being an ally. It’s called collective defence. It’s called realising but for the Grace of God that was us.
Afghanistan was the base for an organisation that would have killed as many westerners as they possibly could have.
The more, the better.
Pure, monstrous, blind spite focused on the western liberal world, which, we are a part of don’t ya know.
This is OUR war. It is OUR business. We are fighting for OUR security and the collective security of the people of the western world and in fact the Muslim world as far more Muslims have been killed by these organisations than westerners.
All Politicians are the Same
The initial operation was also an article 5 issue.
IXION
APATS
I do sleep safely in my bed because rough men do violence. I will sleep safer if their lives are not wasted unless it was in an effective campaign.
I slept as safely in my bed in reality on the 12th of September, as I did on the 10th. I am probably as safe in my bed now, as I was on the 12th of September. The Afghan adventure has changed that not one Iota. The killing of Bin laden may help a bit. but that was special forces raid not, building roads etc.
Think Defence
67 British citizens died on 9/11
I think its fair to say that we have mis-stepped many times in the last decade and would we have done it then if we knew then what we know now?
ArmChairCivvy
IXION,
Just a cheeky note: you are so unsure about your facts that you went down from the 10bn by almost as much as you should have gone up.
It is good to have opinions, but it is even better to have the facts to back them up.
Phil
“I slept as safely in my bed in reality on the 12th of September, as I did on the 10th. I am probably as safe in my bed now, as I was on the 12th of September. The Afghan adventure has changed that not one Iota. The killing of Bin laden may help a bit. but that was special forces raid not, building roads etc.”
There’s no point trying to argue against this. You just think what you want. Nobody really cares either way if you think its worthwhile or not.
Nobody can argue against statements like that.
I think we’d be a lot less safe if there were terrorists with the luxury of a secure base in a remote fortress. But then I can’t prove what would have happened if we hadn’t gone in.
IXION
Phil
It was us.
Several hundred UK citizens died in the WTC.
OK so lets say for the purposes of argument,there was a moral argument to go.
We have still achieved bugger all, in reality.
Phil
“We have still achieved bugger all, in reality.”
Not if you read the papers and believe it all and indulge in their agenda then I suppose not, you’re right.
It’s all doom and gloom. The Afghans are unable to live in peace and want to destroy each other constantly and a state with a strong central government and large army has never managed to gain control over its territories, ever in the history of mankind. And the insurgency is a coherent, well funded, focused organisation with a common and easily definable aim and the broad support of the Afghan people, who will in turn try and kill them all too. Because they can’t help themselves.
All Politicians are the Same
ixion, really so the fact that since the London bombings in 2005 they have been unable to mount a spectacular attack on western targets is just coincidence. there have also been plenty of spec ops in Afghanistan made much easier by operating from ISAF controlled areas. Intelligence is gathered daily and security means ops are staged over tens rather than thousands of miles.
IXION
TD
I though it was more than 67 dead However there it is.
ACC
How do you cost a war?
Who do you ask govt figures are ‘Massaged’. Do you include the costs of things you would have paid for anyway – soldiers wages etc? If you buy a vehicle for Afghan and you have it left afterwards do you include the vehicle in the cost? So I am suspicious of any exact figures..
Other peoples figures have an agenda. I just went with the most ‘reliable’ figures quoted in public.
It was a shit load of dosh OK?
Phill
Ok no one cares what I think I can live with that.
‘I think we’d be a lot less safe if there were terrorists with the luxury of a secure base in a remote fortress’.
What you mean like the bases in Sudan, Pakistan, Yemen, Lebanon, Iraq……..
Much has been made about the Bold Alligator simulating the Strait of Hormuz, but the aerial shots look more like Shatt-al-Arab (in Virginia) to me
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/02/bold-alligator/
@ James / wf
I know it is silly that’s why I posted it!
Moon has to be seen to be neutral I don’t think anybody cares really about what he says.
I once said here that apparently one of the (minor) drivers for the 82 war was to keep the Soviets out of the islands harbours. But regulars who thought they new better poured scorn on that fact.
x,
You are right, it was still the time when the Soviet navy was going full throttle to become a global force.
Funnily enough they also owned an island with a “dairy farm” bang in the middle of Hong Kong harbour (the gvmnt then used compulsary powers to buy the island for “development”).
A year ago Putin announced that there will be two foreign bases, but the other one (in addition to Syria) has not come to the fore yet (take 50% off all of their announcements is a good rule of thumb anyway)
@ ACC
Yes. The Argentines would have been caught between a rock and a hard place. They would have had to secure the islands from prying Western eyes. But would have been unable to ask the Soviets to leave because of lack of diplomatic support.
3.000 is one mighty observer force (presumably driving around in white-painted AFVs for their own safety); the Telegraph today
” the conflict in Syria enters its eleventh month, having so far claimed an estimated 5,400 lives, the Arab League talked on Sunday about amassing a force of up to 3,000 observers to halt violence. Arabi told ministers he had already proposed the idea to the UN General Secretary.
Arab ministers are meanwhile engaged in intensive talks with Russia and China in the hope they can encourage Bashar Assad to allow peacekeeping forces into the country.”
AOL news “Taxpayers’ to keep Bombardier sweet?
The taxpayer may be set to dig deep again – up to £80m – to help subsidise the Bombardier train plant in Derby. Bombardier is actually now a Canadian-owned company but Bombardier has made the future…”
- BAE tactics, but wasn’t thinking of that, but rather the relative importance of sourcing train vs. key defence equipment onshore… and what should be worth a subsidy
NAO has now published an overview (2011) of its work on MoD, an excerpt from p.7
“In our report on the Major Projects Report 2009, we found that the Department had a future funding gap of between £6 billion and £36 billion in its equipment programme. In March 2011, the House of Commons Defence Committee explored this issue further, noting that the NAO estimate does not reflect the fact that the Department will now meet the full cost of paying for the successor nuclear deterrent programme (some £8 billion), nor does it reflect the judgement by the new Chief of Defence Materiel, Bernard Gray, that a further £5.5 billion should be added to the overall cost of the equipment programme.2(=foot note for dating the latter piece of information)”
So this famous gap, so aptly used to communicate a political agenda is “anything between 6 and 36″ NOT including the book transfer from Treasury to MoD of 8bn, on top of it.
- the small uplift (estimated to be a good 3bn cumulatively between 2015 and 2020) only covers the long-lead items within the above sum of 8 bn (but not the design work that was on-going before the SDSR)
I all fairness Bernard Gray going from general risk buffers across the board to better estimates, by programme, must be taken to be within that liberal “error tolerance” of £ 20bn
its like talking to a child it really is.
You are such a coward
The rule I follow with “its like talking to a child it really is.” is to give up
- have to breach the rule when it is with my own, though
Are you talking to me?
How does pointing out that the US is part of NATO and that ISAF is a NATO body make me a child or coward? You’re mistaking me for one of your decrepit and petty local politic opponents Dom.
@ Phil re in Turmoil
Well I am a bit of in awe of what you used to do.
As for being in Turmoil it at least shows me you aren’t an officer as you know where you are…..
Steady now we’ll be sending Xmas cards soon.
Dont be awe. Any fool can sign up for adventure and march off cheerfully and unsuspectingly to misery. Believe me if I knew what waited for me I wouldn’t have been so keen!
At last there is something practical TD contributors can do. Please join the RNLI too: http://www.rnli.org.uk/how_to_support_us/membership/
@ Phil
Experiences are never as we imagined they would be. What was the biggest difference between what you imagined soldiering to be and reality?
@ Dunservin
Good idea. Never thought to do that!!
The complete and utter violence and spitefulness of it all. You think you imagine it well beforehand. But you don’t. And the paradox is at first it’s awesome. A rush. But after sustained bouts of it, it breaks you. It’s very hard to put across the violence though. Films show gore but you can’t feel that punch in your chest as a shock wave from a soldier detonating an IED in front of you hits. And the horrendous smell.
So the violence. It’s stupefying. Which sounds an odd thing to say but you just don’t appreciate how awful it is going to be before you go away.
Good shout Dunservin
I signed up a few months ago. You get a magazine etc. quite interesting the boats and how they operate.
@ TD
Should take what Phil has just written and find a place for it on your home page.
I believe the expression you soldiers use “It has got a but dusty in here” so I am off for some fresh air, to sit with my birds, and contemplate it all.
Oh god don’t do that! I had a soppy moment! The birds at Khar Nikah were very peaceful. I used to sit and listen to them when I had a moment and smoke my pipe (an idea I got from Pacific!!). The thing is, and it’s obvious now, but it’s deadly silent when nothing is going on. Almost like you’ve gone deaf. Incredibly peaceful when there isn’t an A10 constantly strafing!
“the us is activly trying to strip uk territory”
Still don’t know what that means.
Iraq and Afghanistan are very much British wars. We made our stand ‘shoulder-to-shoulder’ with the Americans. The UK strenuously made the arguments to the international community – at the Security Council table as well as touring individual countries. And we have often declared our interests in respect to the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US does not order us to be there, or set the scale of our commitment – and specifically in relation to Iraq, the US told Blair prior to war that invasion could be done without British forces and that the UK could choose only to participate in a less controversial, post-war, stabilization force if that were his wish.
@Phil
I pity you about the smell, I’m in the medical field, morgue, accidents et al and that damn internal organs smell is something I could never get used to. Endure yes, but damn it stinks really bad.
For pay matters as a Singaporean reservist, you guys are going to love this. You’re not paid. lol. Since conscription is universal for guys, you’re going to be trained even if you don’t like it.
For the TA, it seems that the monetary incentive is required to encourage people to sign up, but since Singapore has no need to “encourage”, there is really no need to spend more money to do something that is an obligation by law. When you’re not activated, you live on your civilian pay like everyone else. The SAF only pays you when you are activated one month a year for training, which is a classic case of left pocket/right pocket. An income tax of 7-8% collected by the government which is close to the 1/12 of a year pay they need to pay you when they activate you for a month. This essentially means you’re paying for your own army service, and overall cost to the government is close to nil other than equipment cost. Sneaky bastards.
Employment protection is by law. Companies are not allowed to fire staff due to National Service. Most companies are not too upset about it, there is sometimes a slight staff shortfall, but the tradeoff is them getting army disciplined workers, which they see as incredibly helpful in solving tardiness and getting staff that can take a fair degree of bullshit and still keep their cool. (I said “keep their cool”, not “they won’t bitch about it”…
). Those companies that don’t like it just carry on as much as they can. Authoritarian government, no point arguing with them, they’ll listen… then do what they want to do anyway. Which has pros and cons but that’s a different topic.
So that was pay and employment protection covered. Anything anyone want to ask? Just go ahead, I’ll try to answer best I can.
anyone watch royals in afghanistan last night? It’s been a good few programmes already, but concentrating on how they were getting the people back into the villages was superb viewing, the RN translator known as alexander the great by the locals was just enspiring. Right at the end a welsh guard sgt summed it all upsaying his friends and CO who died would’ve been pleased to know “they hadn’t been pissing in the wind” it was a very dusty eye moment.
Sums up all phil has been saying, just because there’s no d-day style push back, it the small victories of towns and markets re-opening that show we are winning
Paul G
Its scotch mist mate, all this re building work lasts as long as we are there. 10 mins after we are gone the Taliban;-
You know; the ‘good’ ones we are negotiating with, not the ‘bad’ ones the Afghan govt are negotiating with; Nor the ‘who the F*ck are they’ ones who actually have an office in Bahrain now* will appear; take over at gun point and start blowing up everything and every one that is ‘Un-Islamic’
Every British soldier who has died in Afghan has died for sweet f’all. And has done since the day The US decided to back off when we and they had the Taliban on the run and go and try and sort out Iraq. There are still people who owe me money over bets I had about how they would be back if we did not finish them off.
* How does that work? Can’t see Google proudly announcing it has the IT fro terrorist award of the year for providing the computers, Staples aint going to post about their new blast proof office furniture as used by the Taliban..
B Black
Iraq and Afghan would have happened without us.
Our political masters decided for some inexplicable, but seriously F*ckwit reason we needed:-
A £10 billion drain on our economy,
To piss off even more some thoroughly evil types,
Tear up a perfectly good military reputation,
Oh and get several thousand of our soldiers killed and injured,
If that makes it a British war Ok. In my book it makes it a US war we invited ourselves too.
Phil
If you have ‘been there’ then respects.
However I still cannot see what is balanced about your force levels or what you intend to achieve with them…
Good joke on Dave last night about history’s shorted war. UK V Zanzibar Z surrendered after 30odd minutes.
‘ Well one tiny little insignificant Island with a glorious past and ideas above it’s station… Still we managed to kick Zanzibars Arse on that occasion’….
IXION,
Out by 80%; guess which way?” £10 billion drain on our economy”
Did you get Luton and Afghanistan, the latter as in the future, mixed up too?
Now that I’ve proved that I watch tellie, what do you read, to get your weird and wonderful facts from?
Thats a pretty bleak assessment Ixion, are things ever as black and white as that
ACC
Agreed cost of Iraq at least £4.5 billion.
Afghan anything from £2.5 to £12 billion depending on who you listen to or how you slice it.
So we can say between ‘only’ £7 billion to £19 billion shall we.
TD Yep it’s pretty bleak.
I keep asking what does victory in afghan look like. (And I do not accept just saying ‘we’ve won lets go home’).
Current plan is to leave the field of battle in the hands of the enemy- that’s a defeat.
When you include the
‘Singapore lite’
Basra experience the whole Iraq/Afghan adventure has been total folly.
‘They died to install a murderous corrupt regime in Kabul, and for the people that killed them to be invited into govt as soon as they left’.
Coming to a memorial near you soon.
Must be imagining the ANA and ANP and ALP. The enemy are criminals on the most part. Not everyone in Afghan is a murderous destructive bastard just itching to destroy everything when we leave. Most just want to get on with it. They’re normal human beings who value peace and security. When we leave the insurgency will be weakened again as what little nationalistic element there is to it is undermined by the lack of the foreigner.
Phill
The enemy are people prepared to kill and be killed for their beliefs. Criminal or not.
BTW Criminals is what the US called the VC, we called the IRA, and the Nazi’s called the Russian Partisans……
The Afghan civil war* will ultimately result in the defeat of Kazi or at the very least the incorporation more or less at gunpoint of significant Taliban elements in an Islamic govt largely hostile to the west.
As for the alphabet soup of security forces left behind by us. The history of such things (with one or two honourable exceptions), is that they melt away faster than a politicians manifesto promises, after he’s won the election. Once the money stops and the occupying/ allied forces aren’t there to do the heavy work.
*(Pencil it in your diary as The great military social occasion for 2014 simply anyone who is anyone will be invited: Iraq Pakistan, India Iran Saudi Arabia:- US UK west in general will manufacture a subsequent social engagement and will have to decline gracefully. Russia won’t have made it’s mind up yet).
“The enemy are people prepared to kill and be killed for their beliefs. Criminal or not.”
Right, so a group of ferral youths in this country who kick to death an old man do so because of their beliefs? What a load of shit. When I say criminals, I mean criminals. I mean common thugs. I don’t mean Jihadists, although they certainly exploit them, I mean criminals pure and simple.
And I’m not arguing the rest with you.
You’ve obviously made up your mind there’s no point.
Is Afghanistan as stable as Iraq before the US left?
Can we look at this with an eye on the perfect outcome?
Not sure we can
We don’t want a stable nation with hot and cold running wimmins rights
What we want is just enough stability so that a even a semi friendly nation can emerge that doesn’t allow or at least keeps the lid on outward bound terrorist schools.
I tend to agree that it was a strategic mistake to drop the Afghanistan ball and go an play in Iraq which cost us dear but you have to finish what you started, even if you end up with less than you hoped
@TD Agree a win is an Afghanistan that does not return to being a safe haven for terrorists. Anything else is the cherry on the icing on the cake.
Given that Pakistan with 500,000 men under arms can’t control the Hindu Kush and the sheer scale of geography how can we possibly believe that Afghanistan will be able to prevent “terrorists” setting up there again?
Further surely it is contrary to talk of discrete terror cells and distributed terror networks on one hand and then talk about attacking territory or destroying physical infrastructure on the other?
“@TD Agree a win is an Afghanistan that does not return to being a safe haven for terrorists. Anything else is the cherry on the icing on the cake.”
Thank God someone on the same page!
And x the key is in the detail. One cannot guarantee that terrorists won’t try and set up there again. But what we can have, is a Government that won’t tolerate that and harass them and allow us to go and get them if needs be.
Afghanistan must become hostile to such an organisation. Not harbour, nurture and protect it like it did.
Phill
It is the rest that needs arguing.
I have indeed made my mind up.
I made it the day Tony Blair (of blessed memory), decide we needed to got to War.
My mind said:-
1) Why? what’s in for us?
2) The US is going to do this anyway.
3) This is going to cost us blood and treasure.
4) After all our last Afghan adventures went well didn’t they.
5) The Russians were just back from an Afghan holiday with lots of pictures and souvenirs (like a war in the Caucasus). They said it was pants as well.
When we bought off the locals, deployed John Simpson, fought of the Taliban die hards, and looked like we might just pull it off;
My mind asked:-
‘WTF are we doing turning our backs on this and starting another war next door. The whole war on 2 fronts thing generally does not go well. The bastards will be back in months if we do not only stomp them, but keep stomping them. So that the ordinary decent Afghans can see they are stomped and stop being afraid of the Knock in the night.
MY Mind told me that we no longer had the anti to play high stakes poker in Iraq and Basra proved that.
My mind told me trying to control Helmund with 3 guys and a dog was stupid.
My Mind told me there were striking parallels with Vietnam.
1) Insecure border over which rebels could come and go at will
2) Safe havens on other side of border they could retreat to supported by at least elements of that state.
3) At least a core of supporters on the ground.
4) Corrupt murderous regime installed by outside powers. Lacking general support
5) No functioning state apparatus forcing people into tribal support arrangements. leaving no strong believe or reliance on the ‘Free state’.
6) Strong driving ideology (in this case a religion)
7) General hatred of the foreign invader and all his works.
8)Insufficient troops on the ground, over-reliance on technology.
9) Funding from outside backers for weapons etc.
In fact the only real difference is that Vietnam tends to be wetter with more trees.
My mind told me we were in the shit.
And NOTHING that has happened since:-
All the dead bodies,
All the maimed heroes,
And most of all my mind tells me.
ALL the announcements that
‘This year is really it we got them on the run boys the ANA are finally up to it …yad yada yada
ARE UNMITIGATED BOLLOCKS
So please Phill. I will retract all of the above, I will tell my mind
‘You know what you got it wrong old bean’.
If you will deign to answer these questions:-
Why did we go to Afghan wen the yanks would have done it without us?
Why did we go to Iraq? when the Yanks offered to do it without us.
What were supposed to achieve originally in Afghan?
And finally
‘WHAT WILL VICTORY LOOK LIKE IN AFGHANISTAN IN 2014???*
* The answer
‘Well we get the deaths down to a ‘manageable level’ long enough for us to show some Journo’s round, say ‘look at this functioning state’; declare victory, piss off; then when it falls into a blood bath 2 years later; sigh and say ‘Well we tried’.
Is not acceptable. that’s is a defeat.
“I made it the day Tony Blair (of blessed memory), decide we needed to got to War.”
I got as far as that and I stopped reading your screed.
Who decided we went to war? Those fuckers that attacked the western world on September 11 2001 and all the previous pin pricks against us.
They decided on war. They wanted to provoke us into a general war on Islam.
They begged for war.
And they were fundamentally linked to Afghanistan.
OK
So general opinion(after all the blood and treasure) is:-
‘We win if Aghanistan is a medieval Muslim autocracy ruled by the gun, but they don’t let AK back’
£10 to the RNLI If by 2020 they are no harbouring terrorists.
TD to be the judge.
so
‘They died to make Al-Qaeda move to Sudan’
Is an acceptable memorial.
“‘We win if Aghanistan is a medieval Muslim autocracy ruled by the gun, but they don’t let AK back’”
It’s not hard to grasp mate.
Ixion, should have stopped reading when you said, the US would have done it without us! Maybe you want to hide behind big brother but most of us do not and I speak as someone who has been there and seen the difference.
As for what we have achieved, we have taken away the safe haven that allowed planning and training for spectacular attacks on the western world.
George Orwell sums it up nicely “We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” Sleep well Ixion.
Phil
So Al-Q declared war on the west fine.
I would have sent British brigade in alongside the
French
German
Italian
Spanish
Portuguese
Danish
Dutch
Polish
Hungarian
Bulgarian
Romanian
Greek
and Turks (after all they are in Nato and want into the EC).
And I do mean fighting brigades; not some units who don’t go out at night or who’s rules of engagement, prevent effective operation.
But I repeat the US would have done it anyway,so why did we go?
Why did we go? It’s called being an ally. It’s called collective defence. It’s called realising but for the Grace of God that was us.
Afghanistan was the base for an organisation that would have killed as many westerners as they possibly could have.
The more, the better.
Pure, monstrous, blind spite focused on the western liberal world, which, we are a part of don’t ya know.
This is OUR war. It is OUR business. We are fighting for OUR security and the collective security of the people of the western world and in fact the Muslim world as far more Muslims have been killed by these organisations than westerners.
The initial operation was also an article 5 issue.
APATS
I do sleep safely in my bed because rough men do violence. I will sleep safer if their lives are not wasted unless it was in an effective campaign.
I slept as safely in my bed in reality on the 12th of September, as I did on the 10th. I am probably as safe in my bed now, as I was on the 12th of September. The Afghan adventure has changed that not one Iota. The killing of Bin laden may help a bit. but that was special forces raid not, building roads etc.
67 British citizens died on 9/11
I think its fair to say that we have mis-stepped many times in the last decade and would we have done it then if we knew then what we know now?
IXION,
Just a cheeky note: you are so unsure about your facts that you went down from the 10bn by almost as much as you should have gone up.
It is good to have opinions, but it is even better to have the facts to back them up.
“I slept as safely in my bed in reality on the 12th of September, as I did on the 10th. I am probably as safe in my bed now, as I was on the 12th of September. The Afghan adventure has changed that not one Iota. The killing of Bin laden may help a bit. but that was special forces raid not, building roads etc.”
There’s no point trying to argue against this. You just think what you want. Nobody really cares either way if you think its worthwhile or not.
Nobody can argue against statements like that.
I think we’d be a lot less safe if there were terrorists with the luxury of a secure base in a remote fortress. But then I can’t prove what would have happened if we hadn’t gone in.
Phil
It was us.
Several hundred UK citizens died in the WTC.
OK so lets say for the purposes of argument,there was a moral argument to go.
We have still achieved bugger all, in reality.
“We have still achieved bugger all, in reality.”
Not if you read the papers and believe it all and indulge in their agenda then I suppose not, you’re right.
It’s all doom and gloom. The Afghans are unable to live in peace and want to destroy each other constantly and a state with a strong central government and large army has never managed to gain control over its territories, ever in the history of mankind. And the insurgency is a coherent, well funded, focused organisation with a common and easily definable aim and the broad support of the Afghan people, who will in turn try and kill them all too. Because they can’t help themselves.
ixion, really so the fact that since the London bombings in 2005 they have been unable to mount a spectacular attack on western targets is just coincidence. there have also been plenty of spec ops in Afghanistan made much easier by operating from ISAF controlled areas. Intelligence is gathered daily and security means ops are staged over tens rather than thousands of miles.
TD
I though it was more than 67 dead However there it is.
ACC
How do you cost a war?
Who do you ask govt figures are ‘Massaged’. Do you include the costs of things you would have paid for anyway – soldiers wages etc? If you buy a vehicle for Afghan and you have it left afterwards do you include the vehicle in the cost? So I am suspicious of any exact figures..
Other peoples figures have an agenda. I just went with the most ‘reliable’ figures quoted in public.
It was a shit load of dosh OK?
Phill
Ok no one cares what I think I can live with that.
‘I think we’d be a lot less safe if there were terrorists with the luxury of a secure base in a remote fortress’.
What you mean like the bases in Sudan, Pakistan, Yemen, Lebanon, Iraq……..