Think Defence hopes to start sensible conversations about UK defence issues, no agenda or no campaign but there might be one or two posts on containers, bridges and mexeflotes!
413 thoughts on “Open Thread – Politics and Business I”
Chris.B.
No entries?
Well let me leave a little easter egg from someone to find years from now. It’s November 2011 and Italy’s cost of borrowing just went over 7%. The Euro is in serious trouble.
This morning, come on Jedi, do bloody well keep up
paul g
2 questions from the above comments what happens in italy goes belly up, i’m thinking agusta westland owned by finnimeca (excuse spelling) and also will it effect F-35 as italy are making a fair bit of it.
If we did this europe defence sharing, could’ve looked a bit stupid if we had left A2G to anyone but france in the recent dust up in libya!!
Chris.B.
If Italy goes, hold on tight (to your job).
Italy is bascially unsaveable if she goes down. The best the IMF and the EU fund could do would be to manage the fallout and perhaps help out some of the exposed banks. Spain, Ireland and Portugal might go soon after as people lose confidence.
The Euro could be done for to be honest. Last night, while ‘Sconi was arsing about the markets started slowly withdrawing on the Euro. Expect that slow movement to go f**king mental if the Italians are forced into a prolonged election campaign (there is a confidence vote in the government scheduled before the next vote on austerity measures!).
And if you have any gold, hold onto it for a minute. Last night the price briefly nudged over $1,800 per ounce. If Italy goes, it’s game on! Shame some one eyed Scottish twat sold most of our gold reserves a long time ago. He got $3.5 billion for it then. That same amount of gold would be worth a bit under $23 billion on Today’s market. (Our remaining reserve is probably worth about $15 billion).
paul g
wow a $19billion difference just think how many schools in africa and pakistan dave could build with that!!!
Mark
PaulG
Italy is really only final assembly for Italian and Dutch F35 Jets so far.
Or a small business loan guarantee scheme that would kick the economy into shape sharpish. One day we’ll get a Government that understands that Small and Medium Enterprises (SME) account for over half of all employment, and are far more flexible and useful in building a strong and diverse economy than large businesses.
Phil
“One day we’ll get a Government that understands that Small and Medium Enterprises (SME) account for over half of all employment, and are far more flexible and useful in building a strong and diverse economy than large businesses.”
They seem to know it but they can’t do sod all about it.
DominicJ
chrisb
sme’s dont fit in 5 year plans and power point economies.
Phil
Dom they are always banging on about the importance of SMEs. And they always bang on about how they need help. And the Government does try. But they are crap.
Chris.B.
Well the plan is “Project Merlin” presumably designed to magic money out of the banks and into the economy. But it’s not enough.
Really the Government could do with selling off its shares in various banks and using the money, plus some it stumps up itself (axe that f**king Big society bank for a start), to create a fund of its own, instead of relying on the banks to do the right thing.
El Sid
Italy going pop would probably be bad for the Yeovil end of AW and bad/good for the Italian end. Bad because the Italian government would slash defence spending (and maybe have the odd Cavour for sale?), but good because if they left the euro, the lira would crash and it would become really cheap to make stuff in Italy.
There’s other ramifications – even the Germans are cutting back on things like NH-90s to help pay for all the kebabs they’ve been ordering lately.
It’s easy to overstate the Italian problem, it’s not as bad as Greece – if they could just sort out their tax collection and black economy, they’d be fine. At the moment their citizens have too much money (>$8 trillion in savings or something like that) and the government debt is about 100% of GDP – normally 80-90% is about where you start losing AAA ratings and such like. If they could just relieve the Mafia/Camorra of a trillion or so, they’d be cushty. The US is about 100% of GDP, and UK 70% (thanks to North Sea oil rather than any great prudence by our politicians) – but we also have a lot more private debt.
Finally – has anyone asked Alex Salmond how that “Independence in Europe” thing is going? Apparently Scotland would be on the hook for €8bn of Greek/Italy bailouts if they were independent and part of the euro.
paul g
army captain writes and distributes memo about shedloads of soldiers, including wounded to be made redundant.
2 things about this capt;
1)he will be orderly officer between 1-31st dec
2)he will be claiming jobseekers 1st jan onwards!
also noted on the thread that most of the worlds uranium is located where they want to go!!
Phil
Nobody will be kicking recovering wounded soldiers out of the Army as part of redundancy. Now there are some wounded soldiers who have essentially recovered who might get made redundant along with everyone else.
I’m sorry but that’s the way it has to be, the Army is not social jobs programme and they’ll get a far better package of money and re-settlement than they’d ever have gotten in civilian life to start again.
The MoD well recognises that it has a duty of care toward the recovering wounded and they stay on strength, fully paid up until they are rehabilitated. This can take 3-5 years.
Chris.B.
I swear there are a group of senior advisors in the US government and military just pissing their pants right now at how much extra spending (or loss reductions) they can get Congress to agree to based on “the Chinese threat”.
Angus McLellan
@El Sid: Salmond won’t be worried. There’s was discussion on BBC Newsweek today. The programme also has two vaguely defence-related pieces in the second half.
There’s a piece on the future of space programmes. Chris.B won’t be surprised to learn that the punditry expected the US to be more than a little concerned if China started a Moon landing programme. And they will. So, not just the Pentagon who’ll be looking for more pennies in the face of the Yellow Peril then, but NASA too.
I sometimes think I must have slept through the Chinese invasion of Taiwan. The cover-up was very effective too because I can’t find any evidence that it happened.
There’s also a stating-the-bleeding-obvious discussion of the Iranian nuclear programme. An attack on Iran, especially an Israeli attack, would strengthen Ahmedinejad’s weak internal position. Well I never! Our expert guessed around 3-5 years from a hypothetical decision in Tehran to proceed with a bomb programme to actually producing a weaponisable device. A device that would only be useful for test and PR purposes would be doable in a year supposedly.
Paul R
I understand why the Army wants to cut those that are injured and will not make it back into active service.
I’m ok with letting them go, providing the welfare system has the correct benefit for them, ie create a veteran benefit and not just stick them on any new crappy benefit, then you’ve got to do something with the pensions. Also I’d like to see opportunities for them in the army still, not everyone has to be fighting fit, its probably a horrible term, but become a paper pusher (like accounts, something that is useful outside of the army)
Sadly with government joined up thinking like ours does not exist.
So the outrage in people is probably not because they’re injured and getting kicked out, its the lack of commitment from the government after they are made redundant.
The benefit system is a complete mess at the moment, it amazes me that GP, Consultants and specialists are ignored in benefit claims, yet the government wants these very people(whom they ignore) to run the bloody nhs!!!
Does anyone know if the current or future benefit systems has anything for veterans?
btw I don’t like the use of the word veteran, now days its portrayed as quite glorified and heroic. But more along the lines of “medically retired because all I had was a shitty land rover”
Phil
There are jobs in the Army for them, each case I believe is judged on its merits. Obviously there is more scope for keeping an old sweat with one foot missing in as an RQ or instructor than there is your 19 year old Tom.
If you’re injured and discharged you get Armed Force Compensation Scheme lump sum payments and a guaranteed income payment. Plus they can obviously access over civilian benefits. If they have also been sensible they’ll have a PAX pay out too. I know a double amputee who is now a millionaire – for what its worth.
The civilian benefit system has nothing in particular for “veterans”. War Pensions can be completely disregarded for Housing Benefit but that is down to each council and there are, believe it or not, some tight bastards who take it all into account.
DominicJ
paul r
not being funny, but people join infantry because they’re too thick to do anything else.
I cant run 20 miles in full kit in 6 hours, but i can maintain 99.94% accuracy for 14 hours for 4 days (plus getting home an back to work).
Not really time for airbumming……
Rommel considered ‘none coms’ to be second class, monty kicked his arse good and proper
Phil
“not being funny, but people join infantry because they’re too thick to do anything else”
Doesn’t sound much like the infantry I worked with for 6.5 months Dom. Sure there were plenty of fuck ups but there were some switched on cookies. And there’s a lot to know and remember.
And they need 100% accuracy, for 195 days with little sleep or someone cops it.
x
DomJ said “not being funny, but people join infantry because they’re too thick to do anything else.”
I would proffer an apology to the community for that one and hope they forgive you.
Think Defence
Dom, thats a pretty bone statement
Some of the brightest people in the Army are infantry and it is of course entirely appropriate that different jobs needs different qualities, academic or otherwise. Is driving a truck particularly intellectually demanding, or building a bridge, or flying an Apache, different strokes need different folks.
Air bumming by the way is a REME speciality
paul g
Indeed it is and created by degree holding technicians as well! Infantry thick? it’s horses for courses not everyone in the inf is bright but then again i’ve known tradesmen who can fix stuff all day long, but need to be told to wash, go to the toilet etc etc.
What does tend to happen is those not so accademic are encouraged to find out what they can do and on leaving the mob have the confidence to crack on and do well.
I’m with phil on the wounded in the old days (even the 80′s) there were always jobs for the downgraded now it’s a leaner machine, no mess managers,stewards or clothing storeman jobs. So as long as the aftercare is spot on then it’s time to go, sounds harsh i know but if your new slimmed down inf had 20% non deployable is it an effective unit?
x
Does make you think though by the time you have outsourced a service and paid the ex-servicemen a whole host of benefits whether it would be cheaper keeping him/her in uniform. Couldn’t do it for everyone but…….
Seems like Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan are committed to a new “Eurasian Union” starting in 2015. Armenia, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Mongolia could be on the list to eventually join, with others following. Interesting development.
Paul R
Well lets hope they have a common currency, it might just break them apart in the future.
I’d laugh if anyone suggests this is another soviet union, its probably no worse than the EU.
Chris.B.
@ PaulR
The plan is to make it a purely economic union. It’s just a way for Moscow to try and help out its economy a little, while also pulling those states away from the influence of outside players.
There’s no military aspect to this. It’s nothing really to worry about either, it’s largely looking just like a defensive measure against the spread of the EU into the eastern steppes and China’s diplomatic efforts on its western border.
jedibeeftrix
will Defence see any further cuts tomorrow (because some departments are certainly going to):
I am cautiously optimistic that their will be no ((budget)) cuts, but the black-hole hasn’t entirely been eliminated so there may well be further ((capability)) cuts.
DominicJ
CB
Its through and through an “oh shit, wtf china is gobbling us all up” union.
ArmChairCivvy
Yep, there are already big energy/ pipeline deals between China and Kazakhstan.
If the railway comes next, there is only Turkmenistan in between, before linking with Iran.
Chris.B.
Those countries in the middle must be loving it. They’ve got a bidding war between Russia and China going on, and now the Americans are going to be looking for logistical staging posts and through routes as well. It’s Christmas come a little early.
“French, Germans Should Team on UAV: German Minister”
If this happens then I expect European UAV project will get very messy very quick. Problem with such multi national projects is that everyone want something and always wants more design and production share.
I hope we tell the Germans to get stuffed, this is an opportunity for the UK to push for a project with France alone and get ahead of the Germans.
Gareth Jones
Thought this might be of interest – some detail on the possible post independence plans for Scotland:
The bit about building closer ties with Northern and Eastern europe I can understand, for the UK as a whole.
But 9% of defence? Laughed off. That defence was built, surprisingly enough, for the protection of the United Kingdom. If the Scots wish to leave that protection then they’re more than welcome, but the protection stays with the organisation that bought it.
Tubby
If Salmond can swing independence (and its increasingly unlikely as the recession drags on) then I expect the English Government to royally screw the SNP – if we gave them 9% the value rather than 9% of the inventory of the armed forces I wonder what that would look like in terms of numbers, I bet it would result in very little kit (as F-35, the Carriers and Trident replacement would distort the equipment budget which might be the real reason why Trident transferred to the core equipment budget) and certainly not the kit the SNP wants which is 24 Typhoons and 2 Type 23′s/Type 26’s and enough equipment to stand up the Royal Regiment of Scotland as multi-role force, along with a England committing to paying for the redevelopment of all the real estate to the standards Salmond wants.
The only logical bit of Salmond’s plans if for P-3’s a I hope our clueless bunch of morons running the country can swallow their pride and get us some suitably modernised by Airbus in the next few years.
Chris.B.
I think he’s also forgetting that the Defence Industrial Strategy would require the UK to remove all shipbuilding from Scotland and return it to sovereign territory.
The trouble is he’s got a lot of people dangling off the North Sea Oil thread, while keeping it hush, hush that by 2020 most of that oil will be spent. Then what are they gonna do?
DominicJ
They’ll get 9% of the equipment, its fairly standard, and 9% of the staff if they want them, or can convince them to join up.
Its unlikely they will even want 9% of the kit.
Lets face it, they arent going to want 1 Astute are they? They might however, want T1 typhoons.
Would they even want Challies?
“I think he’s also forgetting that the Defence Industrial Strategy would require the UK to remove all shipbuilding from Scotland and return it to sovereign territory.”
The idea probably just hasnt occured to him that Scottish Independance would have a down side.
There are dozens of rusting harbour towns that would love to host the nuclear submarines or the new ship yards.
Barrow would be a good place to invest if Scottish independance looked likely.
James
There’s also a Scottish armoured Regiment (SCOTS DG) and unless it changed in the last 8 years, at least a couple of Regiments of Scottish-affiliated Gunners and Sappers. Of course, not all of the soldiers in those Regiments are Scottish, and even among the Scots, not all may wish to transfer across. Rewinding to my time in green, I wouldn’t have done. I joined the Army to go to places, to serve on operations in a first class world Army, not to be part of some militia.
What’s the betting that 9% of hardware is going to consist of hundreds of Snatch Landrovers, CVR(T) and Bulldog, with a few Bedford 4 tonners thrown in for goodwill?
DominicJ
James
Indeed, its quite likely scotland would expect a payout instead of all of that 9%.
The population thing is interesting, Irish Members of the armed forces were given the same choice on the creation of the free state, no idea how many chose to join the new and how many stayed, but nowadays, I’d guess very few would want to be part of a scottish armed forces.
ArmChairCivvy
I am doing this comparison based on the Irish defence forces (even though the article reference was specifically to Nordic neighbours):
RE “joined the Army to go to places, to serve on operations in a first class world Army, not to be part of some militia”
- 40.000 members of the Irish forces have served with UN and the like operations (I am sure there is some double counting there, but just divide that with the overall strength); so they do get to travel
RE “What’s the betting that 9% of hardware is going to consist of hundreds of Snatch Landrovers, CVR(T) and Bulldog, with a few Bedford 4 tonners thrown in for goodwill?”
- quite a good mix if you think of a) the Scottish landscape, or b) peacekeeping (not making)
- and of course the balances would be split based on book values (not count) so they would be getting loadsa…
BTW: I (would) welcome a new member to the Nordic family, but I object to
1. hollowing out the UK defence, and
2. not accounting for all that money sent north of the border as a budget subsidy over so many years (mainly from folks in the SE)
James
@ ACC,
re UN and Ireland, many individual missions, the remainder at Company level as peace keepers. It’s hardly grown up war fighting across the full spectrum of conflict, which is the attraction to many of joining the British Army (or RAF, or RN).
ArmChairCivvy
well, I so much agree
- and the rumour has it (facts are not published) that the Scottish representation in SF is quite disproportionately high
Gabriele
Isn’t it more likely, anyway, that if Scotland devolution goes ahead, Defence and Foreign Policy remain a common matter within the UK, with Scotland having an independence-lite more related to internal matters than to much else…? Until days ago, for the little i read, it looked like the most likely option.
But i have to admit that i’ve not followed the situation much, so far.
DominicJ
ACC
Usual comment, however, short of a “martial races” theory, its likely simply that the English and Welsh are more likely to leave the army.
The Scots in the SAS would of course, be free to choose which force they want to join, the Scots Militia, or remain in the SAS? Dont see many of them opting the homeland….
And of course, the England could still recruit from Scotland, we recruit from everywhere else….
Gabriele
The SNP strategy has always been simply to maximise the subsidy it gets from England, rather than true independance.
However, the Tories have a majority in the UK *if* Scotland leaves.
Cameron is an avowed unionist, but his position is far from secure, and those who could wield the knife on him, and those who may sit on his throne, are far more practical.
Salmond could find a himself facing a vote in England on throwing Scotland out of the union.
No entries?
Well let me leave a little easter egg from someone to find years from now. It’s November 2011 and Italy’s cost of borrowing just went over 7%. The Euro is in serious trouble.
labour on defence integration:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/nov/09/labour-uk-integrate-key-defence-europe
hat-tip thinkstrat.
Or even this
http://thinkdefence.tumblr.com/post/12552497474/link-labour-uk-should-integrate-key-defence-decisions
This morning, come on Jedi, do bloody well keep up
2 questions from the above comments what happens in italy goes belly up, i’m thinking agusta westland owned by finnimeca (excuse spelling) and also will it effect F-35 as italy are making a fair bit of it.
If we did this europe defence sharing, could’ve looked a bit stupid if we had left A2G to anyone but france in the recent dust up in libya!!
If Italy goes, hold on tight (to your job).
Italy is bascially unsaveable if she goes down. The best the IMF and the EU fund could do would be to manage the fallout and perhaps help out some of the exposed banks. Spain, Ireland and Portugal might go soon after as people lose confidence.
The Euro could be done for to be honest. Last night, while ‘Sconi was arsing about the markets started slowly withdrawing on the Euro. Expect that slow movement to go f**king mental if the Italians are forced into a prolonged election campaign (there is a confidence vote in the government scheduled before the next vote on austerity measures!).
And if you have any gold, hold onto it for a minute. Last night the price briefly nudged over $1,800 per ounce. If Italy goes, it’s game on! Shame some one eyed Scottish twat sold most of our gold reserves a long time ago. He got $3.5 billion for it then. That same amount of gold would be worth a bit under $23 billion on Today’s market. (Our remaining reserve is probably worth about $15 billion).
wow a $19billion difference just think how many schools in africa and pakistan dave could build with that!!!
PaulG
Italy is really only final assembly for Italian and Dutch F35 Jets so far.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/alenia-pushes-to-streamline-costs-for-italian-f-35-plant-332625/
Or a small business loan guarantee scheme that would kick the economy into shape sharpish. One day we’ll get a Government that understands that Small and Medium Enterprises (SME) account for over half of all employment, and are far more flexible and useful in building a strong and diverse economy than large businesses.
“One day we’ll get a Government that understands that Small and Medium Enterprises (SME) account for over half of all employment, and are far more flexible and useful in building a strong and diverse economy than large businesses.”
They seem to know it but they can’t do sod all about it.
chrisb
sme’s dont fit in 5 year plans and power point economies.
Dom they are always banging on about the importance of SMEs. And they always bang on about how they need help. And the Government does try. But they are crap.
Well the plan is “Project Merlin” presumably designed to magic money out of the banks and into the economy. But it’s not enough.
Really the Government could do with selling off its shares in various banks and using the money, plus some it stumps up itself (axe that f**king Big society bank for a start), to create a fund of its own, instead of relying on the banks to do the right thing.
Italy going pop would probably be bad for the Yeovil end of AW and bad/good for the Italian end. Bad because the Italian government would slash defence spending (and maybe have the odd Cavour for sale?), but good because if they left the euro, the lira would crash and it would become really cheap to make stuff in Italy.
There’s other ramifications – even the Germans are cutting back on things like NH-90s to help pay for all the kebabs they’ve been ordering lately.
It’s easy to overstate the Italian problem, it’s not as bad as Greece – if they could just sort out their tax collection and black economy, they’d be fine. At the moment their citizens have too much money (>$8 trillion in savings or something like that) and the government debt is about 100% of GDP – normally 80-90% is about where you start losing AAA ratings and such like. If they could just relieve the Mafia/Camorra of a trillion or so, they’d be cushty. The US is about 100% of GDP, and UK 70% (thanks to North Sea oil rather than any great prudence by our politicians) – but we also have a lot more private debt.
Finally – has anyone asked Alex Salmond how that “Independence in Europe” thing is going? Apparently Scotland would be on the hook for €8bn of Greek/Italy bailouts if they were independent and part of the euro.
army captain writes and distributes memo about shedloads of soldiers, including wounded to be made redundant.
2 things about this capt;
1)he will be orderly officer between 1-31st dec
2)he will be claiming jobseekers 1st jan onwards!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15705570
oh and this popped up on arse,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/8883558/US-to-station-troops-in-northern-Australia-as-fears-of-Chinas-Pacific-presence-grow.html
also noted on the thread that most of the worlds uranium is located where they want to go!!
Nobody will be kicking recovering wounded soldiers out of the Army as part of redundancy. Now there are some wounded soldiers who have essentially recovered who might get made redundant along with everyone else.
I’m sorry but that’s the way it has to be, the Army is not social jobs programme and they’ll get a far better package of money and re-settlement than they’d ever have gotten in civilian life to start again.
The MoD well recognises that it has a duty of care toward the recovering wounded and they stay on strength, fully paid up until they are rehabilitated. This can take 3-5 years.
I swear there are a group of senior advisors in the US government and military just pissing their pants right now at how much extra spending (or loss reductions) they can get Congress to agree to based on “the Chinese threat”.
@El Sid: Salmond won’t be worried. There’s was discussion on BBC Newsweek today. The programme also has two vaguely defence-related pieces in the second half.
There’s a piece on the future of space programmes. Chris.B won’t be surprised to learn that the punditry expected the US to be more than a little concerned if China started a Moon landing programme. And they will. So, not just the Pentagon who’ll be looking for more pennies in the face of the Yellow Peril then, but NASA too.
I sometimes think I must have slept through the Chinese invasion of Taiwan. The cover-up was very effective too because I can’t find any evidence that it happened.
There’s also a stating-the-bleeding-obvious discussion of the Iranian nuclear programme. An attack on Iran, especially an Israeli attack, would strengthen Ahmedinejad’s weak internal position. Well I never! Our expert guessed around 3-5 years from a hypothetical decision in Tehran to proceed with a bomb programme to actually producing a weaponisable device. A device that would only be useful for test and PR purposes would be doable in a year supposedly.
I understand why the Army wants to cut those that are injured and will not make it back into active service.
I’m ok with letting them go, providing the welfare system has the correct benefit for them, ie create a veteran benefit and not just stick them on any new crappy benefit, then you’ve got to do something with the pensions. Also I’d like to see opportunities for them in the army still, not everyone has to be fighting fit, its probably a horrible term, but become a paper pusher (like accounts, something that is useful outside of the army)
Sadly with government joined up thinking like ours does not exist.
So the outrage in people is probably not because they’re injured and getting kicked out, its the lack of commitment from the government after they are made redundant.
The benefit system is a complete mess at the moment, it amazes me that GP, Consultants and specialists are ignored in benefit claims, yet the government wants these very people(whom they ignore) to run the bloody nhs!!!
Does anyone know if the current or future benefit systems has anything for veterans?
btw I don’t like the use of the word veteran, now days its portrayed as quite glorified and heroic. But more along the lines of “medically retired because all I had was a shitty land rover”
There are jobs in the Army for them, each case I believe is judged on its merits. Obviously there is more scope for keeping an old sweat with one foot missing in as an RQ or instructor than there is your 19 year old Tom.
If you’re injured and discharged you get Armed Force Compensation Scheme lump sum payments and a guaranteed income payment. Plus they can obviously access over civilian benefits. If they have also been sensible they’ll have a PAX pay out too. I know a double amputee who is now a millionaire – for what its worth.
The civilian benefit system has nothing in particular for “veterans”. War Pensions can be completely disregarded for Housing Benefit but that is down to each council and there are, believe it or not, some tight bastards who take it all into account.
paul r
not being funny, but people join infantry because they’re too thick to do anything else.
I cant run 20 miles in full kit in 6 hours, but i can maintain 99.94% accuracy for 14 hours for 4 days (plus getting home an back to work).
Not really time for airbumming……
Rommel considered ‘none coms’ to be second class, monty kicked his arse good and proper
“not being funny, but people join infantry because they’re too thick to do anything else”
Doesn’t sound much like the infantry I worked with for 6.5 months Dom. Sure there were plenty of fuck ups but there were some switched on cookies. And there’s a lot to know and remember.
And they need 100% accuracy, for 195 days with little sleep or someone cops it.
DomJ said “not being funny, but people join infantry because they’re too thick to do anything else.”
I would proffer an apology to the community for that one and hope they forgive you.
Dom, thats a pretty bone statement
Some of the brightest people in the Army are infantry and it is of course entirely appropriate that different jobs needs different qualities, academic or otherwise. Is driving a truck particularly intellectually demanding, or building a bridge, or flying an Apache, different strokes need different folks.
Air bumming by the way is a REME speciality
Indeed it is and created by degree holding technicians as well! Infantry thick? it’s horses for courses not everyone in the inf is bright but then again i’ve known tradesmen who can fix stuff all day long, but need to be told to wash, go to the toilet etc etc.
What does tend to happen is those not so accademic are encouraged to find out what they can do and on leaving the mob have the confidence to crack on and do well.
I’m with phil on the wounded in the old days (even the 80′s) there were always jobs for the downgraded now it’s a leaner machine, no mess managers,stewards or clothing storeman jobs. So as long as the aftercare is spot on then it’s time to go, sounds harsh i know but if your new slimmed down inf had 20% non deployable is it an effective unit?
Does make you think though by the time you have outsourced a service and paid the ex-servicemen a whole host of benefits whether it would be cheaper keeping him/her in uniform. Couldn’t do it for everyone but…….
good speech from john
http://www.johnmajor.co.uk/page2455.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15739995
US are going to send 2500 marines to Australia.
Seems like Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan are committed to a new “Eurasian Union” starting in 2015. Armenia, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Mongolia could be on the list to eventually join, with others following. Interesting development.
Well lets hope they have a common currency, it might just break them apart in the future.
I’d laugh if anyone suggests this is another soviet union, its probably no worse than the EU.
@ PaulR
The plan is to make it a purely economic union. It’s just a way for Moscow to try and help out its economy a little, while also pulling those states away from the influence of outside players.
There’s no military aspect to this. It’s nothing really to worry about either, it’s largely looking just like a defensive measure against the spread of the EU into the eastern steppes and China’s diplomatic efforts on its western border.
will Defence see any further cuts tomorrow (because some departments are certainly going to):
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100119954/oecd-blows-george-osbornes-election-deadline-for-eliminating-deficit/
I am cautiously optimistic that their will be no cuts, but the black-hole hasn’t entirely been elimiated so there may well be further cuts.
[edit] function is still borked [/edit]
will Defence see any further ((budget)) cuts tomorrow (because some departments are certainly going to):
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100119954/oecd-blows-george-osbornes-election-deadline-for-eliminating-deficit/
I am cautiously optimistic that their will be no ((budget)) cuts, but the black-hole hasn’t entirely been eliminated so there may well be further ((capability)) cuts.
CB
Its through and through an “oh shit, wtf china is gobbling us all up” union.
Yep, there are already big energy/ pipeline deals between China and Kazakhstan.
If the railway comes next, there is only Turkmenistan in between, before linking with Iran.
Those countries in the middle must be loving it. They’ve got a bidding war between Russia and China going on, and now the Americans are going to be looking for logistical staging posts and through routes as well. It’s Christmas come a little early.
Russia To Send Warships to Syria in 2012: Report
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=8390726&c=EUR&s=SEA
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=8390393&&s=TOP
“French, Germans Should Team on UAV: German Minister”
If this happens then I expect European UAV project will get very messy very quick. Problem with such multi national projects is that everyone want something and always wants more design and production share.
I hope we tell the Germans to get stuffed, this is an opportunity for the UK to push for a project with France alone and get ahead of the Germans.
Thought this might be of interest – some detail on the possible post independence plans for Scotland:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bye-bye-england-snp-plans-closer-scandinavian-ties-after-independence-6272337.html
Samond wants 9% of defence equipment…
Salmond can f**k off.
The bit about building closer ties with Northern and Eastern europe I can understand, for the UK as a whole.
But 9% of defence? Laughed off. That defence was built, surprisingly enough, for the protection of the United Kingdom. If the Scots wish to leave that protection then they’re more than welcome, but the protection stays with the organisation that bought it.
If Salmond can swing independence (and its increasingly unlikely as the recession drags on) then I expect the English Government to royally screw the SNP – if we gave them 9% the value rather than 9% of the inventory of the armed forces I wonder what that would look like in terms of numbers, I bet it would result in very little kit (as F-35, the Carriers and Trident replacement would distort the equipment budget which might be the real reason why Trident transferred to the core equipment budget) and certainly not the kit the SNP wants which is 24 Typhoons and 2 Type 23′s/Type 26’s and enough equipment to stand up the Royal Regiment of Scotland as multi-role force, along with a England committing to paying for the redevelopment of all the real estate to the standards Salmond wants.
The only logical bit of Salmond’s plans if for P-3’s a I hope our clueless bunch of morons running the country can swallow their pride and get us some suitably modernised by Airbus in the next few years.
I think he’s also forgetting that the Defence Industrial Strategy would require the UK to remove all shipbuilding from Scotland and return it to sovereign territory.
The trouble is he’s got a lot of people dangling off the North Sea Oil thread, while keeping it hush, hush that by 2020 most of that oil will be spent. Then what are they gonna do?
They’ll get 9% of the equipment, its fairly standard, and 9% of the staff if they want them, or can convince them to join up.
Its unlikely they will even want 9% of the kit.
Lets face it, they arent going to want 1 Astute are they? They might however, want T1 typhoons.
Would they even want Challies?
“I think he’s also forgetting that the Defence Industrial Strategy would require the UK to remove all shipbuilding from Scotland and return it to sovereign territory.”
The idea probably just hasnt occured to him that Scottish Independance would have a down side.
There are dozens of rusting harbour towns that would love to host the nuclear submarines or the new ship yards.
Barrow would be a good place to invest if Scottish independance looked likely.
There’s also a Scottish armoured Regiment (SCOTS DG) and unless it changed in the last 8 years, at least a couple of Regiments of Scottish-affiliated Gunners and Sappers. Of course, not all of the soldiers in those Regiments are Scottish, and even among the Scots, not all may wish to transfer across. Rewinding to my time in green, I wouldn’t have done. I joined the Army to go to places, to serve on operations in a first class world Army, not to be part of some militia.
What’s the betting that 9% of hardware is going to consist of hundreds of Snatch Landrovers, CVR(T) and Bulldog, with a few Bedford 4 tonners thrown in for goodwill?
James
Indeed, its quite likely scotland would expect a payout instead of all of that 9%.
The population thing is interesting, Irish Members of the armed forces were given the same choice on the creation of the free state, no idea how many chose to join the new and how many stayed, but nowadays, I’d guess very few would want to be part of a scottish armed forces.
I am doing this comparison based on the Irish defence forces (even though the article reference was specifically to Nordic neighbours):
RE “joined the Army to go to places, to serve on operations in a first class world Army, not to be part of some militia”
- 40.000 members of the Irish forces have served with UN and the like operations (I am sure there is some double counting there, but just divide that with the overall strength); so they do get to travel
RE “What’s the betting that 9% of hardware is going to consist of hundreds of Snatch Landrovers, CVR(T) and Bulldog, with a few Bedford 4 tonners thrown in for goodwill?”
- quite a good mix if you think of a) the Scottish landscape, or b) peacekeeping (not making)
- and of course the balances would be split based on book values (not count) so they would be getting loadsa…
BTW: I (would) welcome a new member to the Nordic family, but I object to
1. hollowing out the UK defence, and
2. not accounting for all that money sent north of the border as a budget subsidy over so many years (mainly from folks in the SE)
@ ACC,
re UN and Ireland, many individual missions, the remainder at Company level as peace keepers. It’s hardly grown up war fighting across the full spectrum of conflict, which is the attraction to many of joining the British Army (or RAF, or RN).
well, I so much agree
- and the rumour has it (facts are not published) that the Scottish representation in SF is quite disproportionately high
Isn’t it more likely, anyway, that if Scotland devolution goes ahead, Defence and Foreign Policy remain a common matter within the UK, with Scotland having an independence-lite more related to internal matters than to much else…? Until days ago, for the little i read, it looked like the most likely option.
But i have to admit that i’ve not followed the situation much, so far.
ACC
Usual comment, however, short of a “martial races” theory, its likely simply that the English and Welsh are more likely to leave the army.
The Scots in the SAS would of course, be free to choose which force they want to join, the Scots Militia, or remain in the SAS? Dont see many of them opting the homeland….
And of course, the England could still recruit from Scotland, we recruit from everywhere else….
Gabriele
The SNP strategy has always been simply to maximise the subsidy it gets from England, rather than true independance.
However, the Tories have a majority in the UK *if* Scotland leaves.
Cameron is an avowed unionist, but his position is far from secure, and those who could wield the knife on him, and those who may sit on his throne, are far more practical.
Salmond could find a himself facing a vote in England on throwing Scotland out of the union.