Think Defence hopes to start sensible conversations about UK defence issues, no agenda or no campaign but there might be one or two posts on containers, bridges and mexeflotes!
2,889 thoughts on “Open Thread – Land, Sea and Air II”
The Mintcake Maker
I see the article says that at least 5 infantry battalions will go. I personally think we may lose upto a maximum of 7, to give us a nice round number of 30 battalions (it makes the figures easy for the MoD/politicians). Below is how I think the Army/MoD might reduce the number of battalions by using British Army Recruitment Areas Map and merging units that are close to each other’s recruitment areas. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Army_Infantry_Recruiting_areas.png )
1) The Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment and The Royal Anglian Regiment merge to form; The Princess of Wales’s Royal Anglian Regiment. The new regiment reduces to 3 battalions, a reduction of 1.
2) The Royal Welsh and The Royal Merican Regiment merge to form; The Royal Welsh & Mercian Regiment (or something else if somebody can name it better?). If only 5 battalions are going from the Army the new regiment would lose 1 battalion. However if a reduction of 7 is required then we could see the new regiment cut to 3 battalions, a reduction of 2.
3) 5 SCOTS are merged with 4 SCOTS to form a unified regular Highlanders battalion, resulting in a reduction of 1 regular battalion
4) The 2nd & 4th, 3rd & 5th Battalions, RIFLES are merged together allowing The Rifles to become a 3 battalion regiment with one battalion each representing the RGJ, TLI and DDLI & RGBL. A reduction of 2 infantry battalions.
5) 1 Battalion from the Yorkshire Regiment is disbanded. Hopefully this won’t be the case as I think 3 battalions from a large recruitment area is about right, however this does keep on being thrown about in the press.
What the Telegraph believes to be happening this Thursday. Pretty much backing up the sky report, independent and other telegraph stories which have been running aroun and which have all been followed my MOD statements.
x
No comment about Brigadier Moffat resigning?
Phil
Hardly surprising, someone who has gone almost as far as they probably could go (considering she is not a combat arms officer) has opted to take what is no doubt an eye watering voluntary redundancy settlement. Throw in some guff about despondency to get yourself noticed and she’ll be in another job by nightfall along with drawing her pension.
It’s a no brainer, the redundancy package is apparently very generous.
ArmChairCivvy
The previously linked news piece disclosed this “apparently very generous” to the nearest thousand .
- that was not not contentious to me in any way
- in her position, I would take it, she had to (under orders) oversee the “stealing” of pensions of fellow officers sacked close to their possible retirement… not fun?
x
The USMC are testing how motion sickness affects shooting.
DARPA are trying to design an IFV in a year by crowdsourcing rather than by pissing about in Abbey Wood for a decade – it’s an Aviation Week URL which can be a bit temperamental, look for it on Ares or Google “DARPA’s FANG: Design it, Build it, Make it Quick”.
El Sid
The crabs will enjoy some of the comments from the Luftwaffe’s operations group commander after taking 8 of their Tiffies to play with F-22′s – the Red Baron must be spinning in his grave :
“Because the Luftwaffe’s goal was to prove the Typhoon’s abilities as a fighter, the service took the opportunity to test new software modifications at Red Flag-Alaska. The idea was to bring the German aircraft up to the same standards as the UK Royal Air Force’s Typhoons, Grune says. The RAF’s squadrons have traditionally been on the leading edge of fully exploiting the fighter’s capabilities…
The biggest change was to the aircraft’s Euroradar Captor sensor’s software, which was vastly improved, Grune says. New radio, mission data and countermeasures software systems were also added…
But Grune says the biggest change was not to the Typhoon’s hardware or software, but to the Luftwaffe’s mentality for using the aircraft. “Why is the British air force, for example, so superior with the Eurofighter and we are not?” he asks. “Simply because our force didn’t put the focus on certain areas.”
The other slightly amazing news is that the Russians are going to do a Red Flag – I wonder if that’s one of those little things that has been offered to help oil the wheels over Syria?
ArmChairCivvy
Thanks El Sid,
A strong hint of A2G updates coming for the Luftwaffe Tiffies is included in the linked article.
In 1973 the UK turned its back on the Commonwealth. And has since spent billions in giving to the EU so they can give money to the likes of Spain who could then afford to concentrate their own money on looking after their own industry so they could build stuff and sell it to our Commonwealth. Good ain’t it?
@ACC
re:Luftwaffe A2G – nothing interesting there, it’s just the planned P1E.
Topman
@ El Sid
What level of A-G have the GAF got at the moment and what is their/NETMA plan at the moment ?
El Sid
@Topman
Officially they don’t have any A2G until they (finally!) get P1Ea, otherwise known as SRP10 – which is nearly here. It needs to be signed off by NETMA, then given to 17 Sqn to play with as the OEU, and then it goes to the individual air forces for national clearance. That process should take 6 months or so.
Although SRP10 adds lots of important and useful things, it’s mostly the “boring” stuff like comms and navigation. It’s not so interesting in terms of headline weapons, it gives the main development pathway an austere A2G capability like the crabs have had for a while, but the others are only interested in EPW II, they’re not buying Paveway IV. Plus it completes the Iris-T integration.
The second phase of P1E, P1Eb (aka SRP12), is more significant as it provides a new operating system that will be the basis of all subsequent weapons integration and which allows a lot more to go on at the same time – it’s a bit like upgrading from Windows 3.1 to Windows 7 for those that can remember Windows 3.1… It will also add full GPS bomb capability, so combine those two aspects and you can drop bombs in one pass that are intended for multiple targets, rather than just being able to aim at one target at a time.
After that (late 2014?), nothing is set in stone – P1Eb gives a platform for air forces to take more of an “a la carte” approach to weapons integration and nothing is officially decided yet. Storm Shadow and Taurus will probably be first, in 2015, followed by Brimstone and then Spear(3) and RBS-15. Possibly – nothing beyond P1E is funded yet.
Meteor is happening separately – it’s just entered official production, the RAF get their first deliveries by the end of the year. That doesn’t mean it will be operational then though – again you’ll see a gradual buildup through “austere” capability. In fact it will be the Swedish Gripens that get full capability first, in 2-3 years time, followed by us in 2016 and then the French Rafales in 2018 or so. The Luftwaffe still haven’t placed an order for it, although that should happen soon (Farnborough?). But it gives you an idea of how not everyone is quite singing from the same songsheet.
ArmChairCivvy
Is this “and RBS-15″ also a Gripen thing?
- as surely none of the current Typhoon nations have it/ have ordered it
Topman
@ El Sid, thanks. As I thought, they have a bit of a odd path but then it’s expected.
‘the RAF get their first deliveries by the end of the year.’
Seems a bit odd as 17 Sqn have only got it penciled in for 2015 for the trials for it.
‘Storm Shadow and Taurus will probably be first, in 2015, followed by Brimstone and then Spear(3) and RBS-15. Possibly – nothing beyond P1E is funded yet.’
I think it has already changed last time I looked I don’t think SS was that soon on the TES plan.
El Sid
@ACC
Anti-shipping is important to some of the export customers like India and UAE, and the Luftwaffe need to replace Tornado-Kormoran but would have been quite happy to outsource the integration to India as part of the workshare. The Germans already use RBS-15 on their corvettes so it’s the logical one for them to use, another option would be the Italian Marte-ERP which has the advantage that you can get more of them onto a Tiffy. Like I say, it won’t happen for a while unless an export customer wants to fund it.
@Topman
Don’t expect anything to do with Typhoon to be logical! It’s partly a factor of Lostock only being able to produce ~250/year, so it takes a while for each customer to accumulate a meangingful stockpile for when they are in service. We have a particular problem with life-expiry on our AMRAAM inventory so we need lots of Meteors from the start.
On SS – as I say nothing is definite, but it’s not just the crabs that are pushing for things like SS. The Saudis are desperate to …err… “procure advanced A2G capabilities” but Israel won’t let the Yanks give their best toys to the Ay-rabs. So the rumour is that the Saudis want to make Typhoon their main A2G platform and buy a lot more, with the side-effect of making it the basis of a significant aerospace industry of their own (after the will-they-wont-they-build-domestically saga of their Tranche 2′s). Obviously there’s lots of politics involved, just at a time when the Europeans have no money but want to retain workshare – it’s really messy.
Topman
@ El Sid
Yes it’s a messy project. I should have thought of that, long lead items and all that. It seems some things have changed next time with the Typhoon integration have changed, next time I’m in work I’ll have a look at the plan for 17 Sqn trials.
ArmChairCivvy
June issue might already be off the shelves, but it had 52 pages on RAF Typhoons and can be got as a back issue from here http://www.airinternational.com/
ArmChairCivvy
Hi El Sid, RE
” We have a particular problem with life-expiry on our AMRAAM inventory so we need lots of Meteors from the start.”
- first normal production Meteors will roll off the line during this year…and still it will only become operational in 2015-16
I missed this completely even though it is just speculation.
Swimming Trunks
@ x – yeah, caused quite a stir; particulary within the Welsh Labour party.
Phil
The Welsh Labour Party should shut its mouth. On everything.
x
@ Swimming Trunks
No surprise there then! MoD(RN) could provide the two local RNR with MCMV vessels….
@ Phil
That isn’t very democrat is it?
Topman
@ Mark
Nice to see it’s finally been given a public nod for AESA, although I would have thought it would have been ok’d earlier in the year.
With selex funding the project and lack of interest from other nations it’s taken far too long. We could have had this up and running years ago, there’s been a few issues on the project but lack of funding and interest would be the main ones. It seems from that report the Indian’s lack of interest has given everyone the kick up the backside this project needed. Things look a little bit more on track.
ArmChairCivvy
Hi Mark, great link
This part, do you think, means from a Typhoon “In another move to hike capability, the Typhoon partners have agreed to the first test-firing of the new MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile from a BAE Systems test aircraft in the final quarter of this year, said Bob Smith, BAE Systems combat air engineering director.”
- as a successful test from a proxy (Tornado) airframe has already been reported “MBDA is satisfied with the results of its recently-completed live firing campaign with the Meteor beyond visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), and will deliver its first production rounds before year-end, says Andy Bradford, the company’s chief engineer and head of the project.
Three electronic protection measures firings conducted at the Aberporth test range off the west Wales coast earlier this year from Panavia Tornado F2 trials aircraft resulted in direct hits on Selex Galileo Mirach target drones, Bradford says, despite their use of jamming equipment and chaff.”
- look at the posts on 26 June here http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=114286&page=23
Mark
Topman couldn’t agree more I’m guessing it may have been tied up in the uk planning round also
Acc possibility it maybe from bae test a/c I think they have still have the test typhoon flying.
Topman
Might have been Qinteq, they have an F2 at Boscombe Down.
ArmChairCivvy
I was thinking “where did they get that from” RE “have an F2 at Boscombe Down” … so, probably both press relases are right, just that firing trials when the production line is already running seemed a bit odd
Then again, all the F35 sensor results in that recent Bold Alligator were from a BAE 1-11 (and the real F35s busy in other ways)
El Sid
@ACC
In a Typhoon context, “a BAE aircraft” always means one of the test Typhoons at Warton, as opposed to one of the German/Italian/Spanish Typhoons.
@Mark – BAE are still running all three – IPA1 (only really used for carriage trials these days, and things like refuelling tests), IPA5 and IPA6.
Re: firing trials being odd whilst the production line is running, that’s what we were talking about above. MBDA are getting on with building an inventory even though Eurofighter hasn’t delivered the final version of the Typhoon software yet.
On AESA – despite what the man said in the article about this announcement being a “strong statement of intent”, it’s not really. The nations with money pretty much have the nations without money over a barrel – and that includes the “fifth partner” in Eurofighter. Or should we call it EMEAfighter now? A second Saudi order is essentially conditional on Captor-E entering production, so it’s pretty much a no-brainer for the 4 partners to fund, even if it’s taken a while for them to get the paperwork sorted via PR12 etc.
It’s involves some delicate politics. For instance, Saudi is not a member of Euroradar and can’t really be seen to be funding them. Lets just say that unscheduled extra activity at Warton increases the UK tax base, which in turn gives HMG money that can be unilaterally handed over to Selex for work relating to AESA radars for Typhoon without the Euro partners having to match it.
So this wasn’t a big announcement. The big announcement to watch relating to Captor-E is production contracts next year. You never quite know what the respective Treasuries will allow, but the RAF should get it, it’s unlikely to get cut by the Italians because of the Finmeccanica connection, the Spanish may well not depending on how big a mess they are in, and the Germans – will probably try to get cute. For them more than anyone it’s not a military decision but a political one, it’s a big lump of spending to commit just before an election. So you might see them only upgrading part of their fleet or something. Plus they see Euroradar as an Italo-British entity, so want some commitments in return if they’re to sign up to it. For instance they’d love us and the Italians to put their new glide bomb on our Typhoons, and then in turn our F-35′s, which would open up a big market for them.
As I say, it’s a real mess.
paul g
yet another role for the C-295, can’t believe we still overlook this aircraft.
Notable the Swedes have a very low opinion of the NH-90. Lucky escape there, although since we are stuck with AW101 which is too big, and a Wildcat that is too small, you rather wish that Westlands had stuck with their previous ways and license produced more WS-70′s
x
@ wf
Dude. Somebody will read that now and start a Should we not update Puma and buy Blackhawks thread? For £300million we could buy nearly 40….. Oh no I can’t help me self!
Phil
Cheap perhaps for the United States which has been operating the things for 30 odd years and is buying in large quantities and probably does not need the type of support package we would need to buy.
And why?! For the love of God why?! Why spend loads of money on an airframe that is 30 years old when you can for less update an airframe which is only slightly older? And why would we want lots of squad sized helicopters when we have Chinook that can carry more, faster and further?
Phil
Have I gone insane? Have I completely imagined a comment that had a link about the US buying loads of Blackhawks?! I can’t see it now!
@Phil Have I gone insane? Have I completely imagined a comment that had a link about the US buying loads of Blackhawks?! I can’t see it now!
You mean x’s comment four above yours?
You’ve got to be careful about these kinds of quoted prices – you often find that they don’t include a lot of basic things like…engines. Looking at the DoD budget it looks like they were requesting 71 in FY12 at a procurement cost of $1525.4m, or a smidge under £14m each. That’s excluding development costs etc. Compare that to the £19m of a Merlin HC3 and the Merlin looks the better buy once you take into account the advantages of domestic vs foreign production and the existing Merlin supply chain.
As another data point, a 2010 FMS deal saw Taiwan buy 60 for $1705.8m, which works out as £18.4m per Black Hawk. Still think UH-60M are dirt cheap?
“The ten ton NH90 comes in transport and naval version (used for reconnaissance, anti-submarine and anti-ship missions.) The transport version can carry 21 troops or twelve casualties on stretchers, plus the crew of two. Powered by two engines, the NH90 has a top speed of 300 kilometers an hour and a maximum endurance of 5.5 hours. It first flew in 1995 and uses state of the art avionics and other components to justify it’s $40 million+ dollar price tag.
… The Blackhawk design is twenty years older than the NH90. Although the latest version of the Blackhawk is up to date technically, it is slightly smaller and lighter than the NH90, and can only carry eleven troops. Blackhawk max speed is 285 kilometers an hour and endurance is 2.1 hours. The NH90 has more powerful engines and larger fuel capacity, as well as being a bit larger. The big difference is in cost, with new NH90s more than twice as expensive as a new Blackhawk.”
For a simpleton like me that is
- twice the troop lift
- staying up for more than twice the time (range is of lesser importance, but you need to be there, rather than “back at base, refuelling”)
Simon
Not sure I really “get” the NH90.
BlackHawk is a better thought our tactical battlefield copter and Sea Knight is a better thought out troop lift copter.
Due to the old designs of the BlackHawk and Sea Knight surely they would benefit from modern material technology and engine upgrades like Wildcat does over Lynx?
Mark
Another one for TD to add to his collection on second thought he prob designed it
How long do you tend to warm up a jet engine (Typhoon and Harrier in particular) prior to a sortie? Also, is this at 100% military? I’ve read 5 minutes, but think this is very high!
Thanks.
topman
@simon not sure what you mean by ’100% miltary’ but no it wouldn’t take 5 mins. They don’t really need ‘warming up’.
Simon
Topman,
100% military = 100% dry. Sorry, comes from too many flight sims
You say they don’t need “warming up”. Is this because you spend a few minutes taxiing? If so, how long… ish?
Surely you wouldn’t climb in, start up and takeoff immediately with a cold engine???
Mark
Simon
Topman will prob now more than me about this than me but the sequence will be started by the apu bringing power to the aircraft then the engine start sequence which im guessing now a days is pretty much FADEC controlled avoiding any real issues with warm/cold starting once the check list is cleared off you go cant see power being much above 40% n1 prior to takeoff thrust being selected. I would think they’ll only run the engines up if there testing them prior to that.
Simon
Topman, Mark,
Thanks. I managed to download the AV-8B flight ops manual.
I must say I’m a little surprised.
x
@ Simon re GT and warming up
You can now see why the RN were so keen to move from steam to GT.
Topman
@ Simon/Mark
Yes APU start is first, fuel pumps, hyd, ac power and the such turned on. Then engine start, FJ generally have a mechanical connection from the APU to the engine, start up is quick. By the time all the systems had come online and aircrew checks done you are good to go. No warming is needed as soon as they are at idle you can go to max dry, idle is about 60% NH. Engine control on some newer mil stuff is fully controlled by ECU some partially mechanically.
The produres are obviously different for things like QRA/GCAS. GT are good for cases such as those you can get airborne rapidly.
Hope that helps
Simon
Quick question…
How long would a crew go to sea for? 6 months? How long would they then have back on terra firma? Also how much leave do they get per year – ish?
I see the article says that at least 5 infantry battalions will go. I personally think we may lose upto a maximum of 7, to give us a nice round number of 30 battalions (it makes the figures easy for the MoD/politicians). Below is how I think the Army/MoD might reduce the number of battalions by using British Army Recruitment Areas Map and merging units that are close to each other’s recruitment areas. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Army_Infantry_Recruiting_areas.png )
1) The Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment and The Royal Anglian Regiment merge to form; The Princess of Wales’s Royal Anglian Regiment. The new regiment reduces to 3 battalions, a reduction of 1.
2) The Royal Welsh and The Royal Merican Regiment merge to form; The Royal Welsh & Mercian Regiment (or something else if somebody can name it better?). If only 5 battalions are going from the Army the new regiment would lose 1 battalion. However if a reduction of 7 is required then we could see the new regiment cut to 3 battalions, a reduction of 2.
3) 5 SCOTS are merged with 4 SCOTS to form a unified regular Highlanders battalion, resulting in a reduction of 1 regular battalion
4) The 2nd & 4th, 3rd & 5th Battalions, RIFLES are merged together allowing The Rifles to become a 3 battalion regiment with one battalion each representing the RGJ, TLI and DDLI & RGBL. A reduction of 2 infantry battalions.
5) 1 Battalion from the Yorkshire Regiment is disbanded. Hopefully this won’t be the case as I think 3 battalions from a large recruitment area is about right, however this does keep on being thrown about in the press.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9366975/Armys-most-senior-female-officer-quits-amid-cuts-anger.html
What the Telegraph believes to be happening this Thursday. Pretty much backing up the sky report, independent and other telegraph stories which have been running aroun and which have all been followed my MOD statements.
No comment about Brigadier Moffat resigning?
Hardly surprising, someone who has gone almost as far as they probably could go (considering she is not a combat arms officer) has opted to take what is no doubt an eye watering voluntary redundancy settlement. Throw in some guff about despondency to get yourself noticed and she’ll be in another job by nightfall along with drawing her pension.
It’s a no brainer, the redundancy package is apparently very generous.
The previously linked news piece disclosed this “apparently very generous” to the nearest thousand .
- that was not not contentious to me in any way
- in her position, I would take it, she had to (under orders) oversee the “stealing” of pensions of fellow officers sacked close to their possible retirement… not fun?
The USMC are testing how motion sickness affects shooting.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/07/03/shooting-while-sea-sick/
DARPA are trying to design an IFV in a year by crowdsourcing rather than by pissing about in Abbey Wood for a decade – it’s an Aviation Week URL which can be a bit temperamental, look for it on Ares or Google “DARPA’s FANG: Design it, Build it, Make it Quick”.
The crabs will enjoy some of the comments from the Luftwaffe’s operations group commander after taking 8 of their Tiffies to play with F-22′s – the Red Baron must be spinning in his grave :
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/in-focus-german-eurofighters-impress-during-red-flag-debut-373312/
“Because the Luftwaffe’s goal was to prove the Typhoon’s abilities as a fighter, the service took the opportunity to test new software modifications at Red Flag-Alaska. The idea was to bring the German aircraft up to the same standards as the UK Royal Air Force’s Typhoons, Grune says. The RAF’s squadrons have traditionally been on the leading edge of fully exploiting the fighter’s capabilities…
The biggest change was to the aircraft’s Euroradar Captor sensor’s software, which was vastly improved, Grune says. New radio, mission data and countermeasures software systems were also added…
But Grune says the biggest change was not to the Typhoon’s hardware or software, but to the Luftwaffe’s mentality for using the aircraft. “Why is the British air force, for example, so superior with the Eurofighter and we are not?” he asks. “Simply because our force didn’t put the focus on certain areas.”
The other slightly amazing news is that the Russians are going to do a Red Flag – I wonder if that’s one of those little things that has been offered to help oil the wheels over Syria?
Thanks El Sid,
A strong hint of A2G updates coming for the Luftwaffe Tiffies is included in the linked article.
China’s carrier killer may be smoke and mirrors,
http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-carrier-killer-missile-prowess-may-turn-out-to-be-just-a-bunch-of-hype-2012-7
BAE putting Scottish jobs before English jobs over T26,
http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/bae-could-snub-portsmouth-with-new-frigate-build-1-4020638
In 1973 the UK turned its back on the Commonwealth. And has since spent billions in giving to the EU so they can give money to the likes of Spain who could then afford to concentrate their own money on looking after their own industry so they could build stuff and sell it to our Commonwealth. Good ain’t it?
http://www.navy.gov.au/Deployment_of_SPS_Cantabria_to_Australia_in_2013
@ACC
re:Luftwaffe A2G – nothing interesting there, it’s just the planned P1E.
@ El Sid
What level of A-G have the GAF got at the moment and what is their/NETMA plan at the moment ?
@Topman
Officially they don’t have any A2G until they (finally!) get P1Ea, otherwise known as SRP10 – which is nearly here. It needs to be signed off by NETMA, then given to 17 Sqn to play with as the OEU, and then it goes to the individual air forces for national clearance. That process should take 6 months or so.
Although SRP10 adds lots of important and useful things, it’s mostly the “boring” stuff like comms and navigation. It’s not so interesting in terms of headline weapons, it gives the main development pathway an austere A2G capability like the crabs have had for a while, but the others are only interested in EPW II, they’re not buying Paveway IV. Plus it completes the Iris-T integration.
The second phase of P1E, P1Eb (aka SRP12), is more significant as it provides a new operating system that will be the basis of all subsequent weapons integration and which allows a lot more to go on at the same time – it’s a bit like upgrading from Windows 3.1 to Windows 7 for those that can remember Windows 3.1… It will also add full GPS bomb capability, so combine those two aspects and you can drop bombs in one pass that are intended for multiple targets, rather than just being able to aim at one target at a time.
After that (late 2014?), nothing is set in stone – P1Eb gives a platform for air forces to take more of an “a la carte” approach to weapons integration and nothing is officially decided yet. Storm Shadow and Taurus will probably be first, in 2015, followed by Brimstone and then Spear(3) and RBS-15. Possibly – nothing beyond P1E is funded yet.
Meteor is happening separately – it’s just entered official production, the RAF get their first deliveries by the end of the year. That doesn’t mean it will be operational then though – again you’ll see a gradual buildup through “austere” capability. In fact it will be the Swedish Gripens that get full capability first, in 2-3 years time, followed by us in 2016 and then the French Rafales in 2018 or so. The Luftwaffe still haven’t placed an order for it, although that should happen soon (Farnborough?). But it gives you an idea of how not everyone is quite singing from the same songsheet.
Is this “and RBS-15″ also a Gripen thing?
- as surely none of the current Typhoon nations have it/ have ordered it
@ El Sid, thanks. As I thought, they have a bit of a odd path but then it’s expected.
‘the RAF get their first deliveries by the end of the year.’
Seems a bit odd as 17 Sqn have only got it penciled in for 2015 for the trials for it.
‘Storm Shadow and Taurus will probably be first, in 2015, followed by Brimstone and then Spear(3) and RBS-15. Possibly – nothing beyond P1E is funded yet.’
I think it has already changed last time I looked I don’t think SS was that soon on the TES plan.
@ACC
Anti-shipping is important to some of the export customers like India and UAE, and the Luftwaffe need to replace Tornado-Kormoran but would have been quite happy to outsource the integration to India as part of the workshare. The Germans already use RBS-15 on their corvettes so it’s the logical one for them to use, another option would be the Italian Marte-ERP which has the advantage that you can get more of them onto a Tiffy. Like I say, it won’t happen for a while unless an export customer wants to fund it.
@Topman
Don’t expect anything to do with Typhoon to be logical! It’s partly a factor of Lostock only being able to produce ~250/year, so it takes a while for each customer to accumulate a meangingful stockpile for when they are in service. We have a particular problem with life-expiry on our AMRAAM inventory so we need lots of Meteors from the start.
On SS – as I say nothing is definite, but it’s not just the crabs that are pushing for things like SS. The Saudis are desperate to …err… “procure advanced A2G capabilities” but Israel won’t let the Yanks give their best toys to the Ay-rabs. So the rumour is that the Saudis want to make Typhoon their main A2G platform and buy a lot more, with the side-effect of making it the basis of a significant aerospace industry of their own (after the will-they-wont-they-build-domestically saga of their Tranche 2′s). Obviously there’s lots of politics involved, just at a time when the Europeans have no money but want to retain workshare – it’s really messy.
@ El Sid
Yes it’s a messy project. I should have thought of that, long lead items and all that. It seems some things have changed next time with the Typhoon integration have changed, next time I’m in work I’ll have a look at the plan for 17 Sqn trials.
June issue might already be off the shelves, but it had 52 pages on RAF Typhoons and can be got as a back issue from here
http://www.airinternational.com/
Hi El Sid, RE
” We have a particular problem with life-expiry on our AMRAAM inventory so we need lots of Meteors from the start.”
- first normal production Meteors will roll off the line during this year…and still it will only become operational in 2015-16
Some typhoon updates
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120708/DEFREG01/307080001/Seeking-Boost-Typhoon-Exports?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
http://www.milfordmercury.co.uk/news/9802563.First_Minister_draws_a_line_under_nuclear_arguement/
I missed this completely even though it is just speculation.
@ x – yeah, caused quite a stir; particulary within the Welsh Labour party.
The Welsh Labour Party should shut its mouth. On everything.
@ Swimming Trunks
No surprise there then!
MoD(RN) could provide the two local RNR with MCMV vessels….
@ Phil
That isn’t very democrat is it?
@ Mark
Nice to see it’s finally been given a public nod for AESA, although I would have thought it would have been ok’d earlier in the year.
With selex funding the project and lack of interest from other nations it’s taken far too long. We could have had this up and running years ago, there’s been a few issues on the project but lack of funding and interest would be the main ones. It seems from that report the Indian’s lack of interest has given everyone the kick up the backside this project needed. Things look a little bit more on track.
Hi Mark, great link
This part, do you think, means from a Typhoon “In another move to hike capability, the Typhoon partners have agreed to the first test-firing of the new MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile from a BAE Systems test aircraft in the final quarter of this year, said Bob Smith, BAE Systems combat air engineering director.”
- as a successful test from a proxy (Tornado) airframe has already been reported “MBDA is satisfied with the results of its recently-completed live firing campaign with the Meteor beyond visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), and will deliver its first production rounds before year-end, says Andy Bradford, the company’s chief engineer and head of the project.
Three electronic protection measures firings conducted at the Aberporth test range off the west Wales coast earlier this year from Panavia Tornado F2 trials aircraft resulted in direct hits on Selex Galileo Mirach target drones, Bradford says, despite their use of jamming equipment and chaff.”
- look at the posts on 26 June here http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=114286&page=23
Topman couldn’t agree more I’m guessing it may have been tied up in the uk planning round also
Acc possibility it maybe from bae test a/c I think they have still have the test typhoon flying.
Might have been Qinteq, they have an F2 at Boscombe Down.
I was thinking “where did they get that from” RE “have an F2 at Boscombe Down” … so, probably both press relases are right, just that firing trials when the production line is already running seemed a bit odd
Then again, all the F35 sensor results in that recent Bold Alligator were from a BAE 1-11 (and the real F35s busy in other ways)
@ACC
In a Typhoon context, “a BAE aircraft” always means one of the test Typhoons at Warton, as opposed to one of the German/Italian/Spanish Typhoons.
@Mark – BAE are still running all three – IPA1 (only really used for carriage trials these days, and things like refuelling tests), IPA5 and IPA6.
Re: firing trials being odd whilst the production line is running, that’s what we were talking about above. MBDA are getting on with building an inventory even though Eurofighter hasn’t delivered the final version of the Typhoon software yet.
On AESA – despite what the man said in the article about this announcement being a “strong statement of intent”, it’s not really. The nations with money pretty much have the nations without money over a barrel – and that includes the “fifth partner” in Eurofighter. Or should we call it EMEAfighter now? A second Saudi order is essentially conditional on Captor-E entering production, so it’s pretty much a no-brainer for the 4 partners to fund, even if it’s taken a while for them to get the paperwork sorted via PR12 etc.
It’s involves some delicate politics. For instance, Saudi is not a member of Euroradar and can’t really be seen to be funding them. Lets just say that unscheduled extra activity at Warton increases the UK tax base, which in turn gives HMG money that can be unilaterally handed over to Selex for work relating to AESA radars for Typhoon without the Euro partners having to match it.
So this wasn’t a big announcement. The big announcement to watch relating to Captor-E is production contracts next year. You never quite know what the respective Treasuries will allow, but the RAF should get it, it’s unlikely to get cut by the Italians because of the Finmeccanica connection, the Spanish may well not depending on how big a mess they are in, and the Germans – will probably try to get cute. For them more than anyone it’s not a military decision but a political one, it’s a big lump of spending to commit just before an election. So you might see them only upgrading part of their fleet or something. Plus they see Euroradar as an Italo-British entity, so want some commitments in return if they’re to sign up to it. For instance they’d love us and the Italians to put their new glide bomb on our Typhoons, and then in turn our F-35′s, which would open up a big market for them.
As I say, it’s a real mess.
yet another role for the C-295, can’t believe we still overlook this aircraft.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/finland-orders-c295-light-transports-02232/#more-2232
Solomon reports the US Navy and the Army are buying 653 Blackhawks for $8.5billion which is $13,016,845 a copy or £8,677,896 in real money. P
I do hope nobody starts a Why don’t we buy Blackhawks they are so cheap? thread.
@x: http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3ac29f88d5-e656-4eba-891f-a2e2bce27c13
Notable the Swedes have a very low opinion of the NH-90. Lucky escape there, although since we are stuck with AW101 which is too big, and a Wildcat that is too small, you rather wish that Westlands had stuck with their previous ways and license produced more WS-70′s
@ wf
Dude. Somebody will read that now and start a Should we not update Puma and buy Blackhawks thread? For £300million we could buy nearly 40….. Oh no I can’t help me self!
Cheap perhaps for the United States which has been operating the things for 30 odd years and is buying in large quantities and probably does not need the type of support package we would need to buy.
And why?! For the love of God why?! Why spend loads of money on an airframe that is 30 years old when you can for less update an airframe which is only slightly older? And why would we want lots of squad sized helicopters when we have Chinook that can carry more, faster and further?
Have I gone insane? Have I completely imagined a comment that had a link about the US buying loads of Blackhawks?! I can’t see it now!
http://defensetech.org/2012/07/11/bae-designs-solar-cells-to-power-uavs-soldier-systems/
@Phil
Have I gone insane? Have I completely imagined a comment that had a link about the US buying loads of Blackhawks?! I can’t see it now!
You mean x’s comment four above yours?
You’ve got to be careful about these kinds of quoted prices – you often find that they don’t include a lot of basic things like…engines. Looking at the DoD budget it looks like they were requesting 71 in FY12 at a procurement cost of $1525.4m, or a smidge under £14m each. That’s excluding development costs etc. Compare that to the £19m of a Merlin HC3 and the Merlin looks the better buy once you take into account the advantages of domestic vs foreign production and the existing Merlin supply chain.
As another data point, a 2010 FMS deal saw Taiwan buy 60 for $1705.8m, which works out as £18.4m per Black Hawk. Still think UH-60M are dirt cheap?
Changing tack – MdCN, the 1000km “Storm Shadow for SYLVER A70″ had its first end-to-end test this week, the Frogs seem happy :
http://www.opex360.com/2012/07/12/premier-tir-complet-dun-scalp-naval-a-partir-dune-fregate/
warming up for the Blackhawks at dawn ( from http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles2006/2006782454.asp)
“The ten ton NH90 comes in transport and naval version (used for reconnaissance, anti-submarine and anti-ship missions.) The transport version can carry 21 troops or twelve casualties on stretchers, plus the crew of two. Powered by two engines, the NH90 has a top speed of 300 kilometers an hour and a maximum endurance of 5.5 hours. It first flew in 1995 and uses state of the art avionics and other components to justify it’s $40 million+ dollar price tag.
… The Blackhawk design is twenty years older than the NH90. Although the latest version of the Blackhawk is up to date technically, it is slightly smaller and lighter than the NH90, and can only carry eleven troops. Blackhawk max speed is 285 kilometers an hour and endurance is 2.1 hours. The NH90 has more powerful engines and larger fuel capacity, as well as being a bit larger. The big difference is in cost, with new NH90s more than twice as expensive as a new Blackhawk.”
For a simpleton like me that is
- twice the troop lift
- staying up for more than twice the time (range is of lesser importance, but you need to be there, rather than “back at base, refuelling”)
Not sure I really “get” the NH90.
BlackHawk is a better thought our tactical battlefield copter and Sea Knight is a better thought out troop lift copter.
Due to the old designs of the BlackHawk and Sea Knight surely they would benefit from modern material technology and engine upgrades like Wildcat does over Lynx?
Another one for TD to add to his collection on second thought he prob designed it
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/ContainerisedWorkshopGetsTheThumbsUpInAfghanistan.htm
I don’t think this is a “secret” question so…
How long do you tend to warm up a jet engine (Typhoon and Harrier in particular) prior to a sortie? Also, is this at 100% military? I’ve read 5 minutes, but think this is very high!
Thanks.
@simon not sure what you mean by ’100% miltary’ but no it wouldn’t take 5 mins. They don’t really need ‘warming up’.
Topman,
100% military = 100% dry. Sorry, comes from too many flight sims
You say they don’t need “warming up”. Is this because you spend a few minutes taxiing? If so, how long… ish?
Surely you wouldn’t climb in, start up and takeoff immediately with a cold engine???
Simon
Topman will prob now more than me about this than me but the sequence will be started by the apu bringing power to the aircraft then the engine start sequence which im guessing now a days is pretty much FADEC controlled avoiding any real issues with warm/cold starting once the check list is cleared off you go cant see power being much above 40% n1 prior to takeoff thrust being selected. I would think they’ll only run the engines up if there testing them prior to that.
Topman, Mark,
Thanks. I managed to download the AV-8B flight ops manual.
I must say I’m a little surprised.
@ Simon re GT and warming up
You can now see why the RN were so keen to move from steam to GT.
@ Simon/Mark
Yes APU start is first, fuel pumps, hyd, ac power and the such turned on. Then engine start, FJ generally have a mechanical connection from the APU to the engine, start up is quick. By the time all the systems had come online and aircrew checks done you are good to go. No warming is needed as soon as they are at idle you can go to max dry, idle is about 60% NH. Engine control on some newer mil stuff is fully controlled by ECU some partially mechanically.
The produres are obviously different for things like QRA/GCAS. GT are good for cases such as those you can get airborne rapidly.
Hope that helps
Quick question…
How long would a crew go to sea for? 6 months? How long would they then have back on terra firma? Also how much leave do they get per year – ish?
Cheers.
Buying 48 F35B according to the Torygraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9410475/Philip-Hammond-shrugs-off-US-criticisms-of-Joint-Strike-Fighter.html