Think Defence hopes to start sensible conversations about UK defence issues, no agenda or no campaign but there might be one or two posts on containers, bridges and mexeflotes!
1,350 thoughts on “Open Thread – Land, Sea and Air I”
Chris.B.
In level flight at high altitude it can “Supercruise” without the afterburner, but it would need the extra power across the full flight regime like most aircraft.
Jed
Phil – “eyes bigger than belly” – Love it !
From UK armed forces perspective surely the main failure was the inability of the Chief of the General Staff to explain to frikkin “lefty do-gooder” politicians (“a force for good”) that we really did not have the man power to crack on with what we had already started in Afghanistan, AND to get involved in Iraq.
Of course, if any of those politicians had studied any history, and particularly military history, and were a little more “real-politik” oriented (you know, like DomJ) perhaps Afghanistan would have been about helping war-lords destroy the Taliban – with no commitment what-so-ever to “nation building” clearly based on the lack of troops available to create the required density.
Chris.B.
Phil and Jed – you don’t really expect Politicians to live within their means do you?
I think I proposed something along these lines a while back. I can’t remember the precise term I used but I think it was something like “Ink Blot Strategy”, the idea being to establish a secure base of operations somewhere (preferably one easy to defend) and to just gradually spread out from there, much like a blot of ink on a piece of paper.
So that would mean just reaching out to the surrounding population, using foot patrols and medical aid to bring onside the local population. Leaning on the under water knife waters to do a lot of the work “outside the fence” and providing rapid heliborne infantry support and helicopter/aircraft/artillery strike missions when needed.
All that would tie in with training of Afghan security forces, who would be pushed at every opportunity to take the lead.
Very much a start small, grow very gradually type approach, starting back in 2001 before the Insurgency had a chance to gain momentum.
Phil
Ink spot was the strategy that failed. You brasses up hundreds of INS on the ramparts but achieved bigger all in the medium term. You don’t need ink spots, you need ink floods and ink pools. Saturate the area. Build capacity, and then move on.
Phil
Urgh sodding iPhone typos that I can’t edit! The ANA are pushed to take the lead, sometimes reluctantly! As ever it’s a leader thing, if you have a killer they tend to shoot up the ranks in an expanding army leaving less driven at the subaltern level. Things hopefully will even out over time. The current strategy is working, but people refuse to believe it because we’ve not vanquished an army nor will we leave Disneyland behind. But as I argue, such decisive victories were simply a mid 20th century abberation
Phil
I think Jed, there was a fundamental mistake made about what we were facing in 2006. Or perhaps we knew, but like Arnhem, the pressures were there to go anyway. There was a decade of thinking we, the west, could do as much with less thanks to networking etc. I really don’t know what the dynamics behind the scenes were, we’ll have to wait for the Cabinet papers to come out. I suspect it was a mixture of hubris and the blind leading the blind.
Gareth Jones
I recently posted some links to Russian pre-manufactured fortifications on the thread of the new Pill box article and I read an article some time back about the idea of using forts in COIN operations. What do people think about using modern “Forts” in situations like Afghanistan? Could they be used in other situations, or has the development of huge penetrating bombs (as highlighted in another article) doomed such ideas?
Gareth Jones
I can’t find the article I mention above at the moment but did come across this interesting paper; its a bit old but still…
GJ
Generaly speaking, I’m not a fan of “forts”, its too easy just to pummel them out of existance with heavy artilery, and the hammer always beats the shield in the end.
Your far better protected with dispersion, concealment and then “digging in”.
Afghanistan is of course, somewhat different, because heavy firepower is not available, but even then, fortifications need to be built with a purpose in mind.
The most obvious one would be to protect the Afghan ring road, but even with nothing bigger than section houses, and no closer than 100 metres apart, you would need 176,000 men in them at any one time.
The quarter of a million strong Afghan security forces could man them, with all their manpower, working two weeks on, one week off.
Stretching them out to 200m makes it a bit easier, but also means 40men are guarding 1km of road.
In a bunker, with machine guns, its not impossible, but its not easy either, and of course, the Afghans have proven extremely unwilling to stand guard duty and not steal from passers by
ArmChairCivvy
Gabby had captured an interesting contestant for the FRES UV cum the cancelled tactical multi-role thing
- A french programme, 1000 units for a thousand million (euros)
- not sure where the topic will slot on our army thread
Chris.B.
@ Phil,
iPhone’s will be the death of you mate. Get yourself a good, sturdy brick!
Now you sure we’re talking about the same ink? I’m talking Hewlett Packard, black, e34?
My thinking was to find a base somewhere and drop a brigade on it, literally smothering as you say the local area. Then from there softly, softly, catchy, monkey.
Sorry for the long link.. Daily Mailograph are reporting Westminster being sent to Libya with low ammunition stocks. Don’t know the truth of the matter, but if as reported its a sign that (a) there isn’t enough to go round (b) there isn’t the infrastructure to cope with the unforseen contingency (c) someone has pretty epic views on risk management (or not).
10 new subs and there’s will be on time and on buget.
DominicJ
adam
russia frequently makes these big announcements, the kit never actualy turns up.
Announcements are free, kit aint
Frenchie
There is a rumor that said we would do the “Maritime Afloat Reach and Sustainability” boats with you. Normally, in December, our two governments will meet on this topic. I don’t know more about that.
ArmChairCivvy
Nothing new about the tanker confirmation by the French Air Force commander (5-7 initially),
but Project Eagle seems to have moved from the old 707 AWACS planes to these new and roomy ones – and for joint use between UK & France
- interesting stuff about UAV ISDs, too
” The new French A330s would be pooled with the UK, and there would be discussions with the RAF over the addition of command-and-control capabilities to the joint fleet. France would eventually acquire 14 A330MRTTs, Palomeros added, with a second batch serving to replace the service’s A340 and A310 VIP and transport fleet.
Palomeros also confirmed that the French Air Force would not introduce the Anglo-French Telemos UAV until at least 2020. It is a proposed development of the BAE Systems Mantis medium-range long-endurance UAV, which has already flown. France recently decided to adapt the IAI Heron TP to meet near-term requirements.”
ArmChairCivvy
A snippet from the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff:
“”We are not likely to have as our next fight a counterinsurgency,” he said…
America’s enemies and competitors are “coming up with new asymmetric advantages. They’ve been studying us closely…,” he said. So, “we need to avoid the temptation to look in our rear view mirror.”
Our future conflicts, the vice chairman said, will probably occur “in a far more technically challenging environment.” As he described it, the fight will be much closer to a conventional military conflict, characterized by “intense electronic warfighting,” swarm attacks and cyberwar.”
- so, conventional… means what in kit?
- electronic warfighting (on the scene, as part of ops) highlighted separately from cyberwar… no wonder the nxt-gen UCAVs will be preprogrammed for their mission, and satellite comms are being backed-up by more orders for comms-relay jets
Probably no. Still, the component is cracked after living a very fraction of the service life it was expected to last. And that sucks regardless of other considerations.
They say it was expected and that the fifth F35B and successive ones have already a differently designed component to remedy.
We will see.
Def no bf1 and 3 have similar issues. These parts were produced prior to full analysis being completed (long lead time) and were subsequently replaced on the line prior to LRIP jet production same thing happens in ever new a/c built be they miltary or civil some even after they’ve been in service for a few years. Thats why no one wants to buy the first few a/c.
Chris.B.
Phil, need to ask a dumb question.
In your link, when you scroll down near the bottom there is a picture of an Afghan Soldier holding an RPG. Except I don’t recognise the munition that’s loaded into it? What the hell is that?
Phil
Not a clue. I am guessing a sub calibre training round.
Phil
Right, now that I’m on every watch list for googling RPG7 ammunition I know the answer, apparently there are 40mm HE rockets and he looks like he has one loaded.
Chris.B.
“Right, now that I’m on every watch list for googling RPG7 ammunition”
– They’ve got your cell lined up just next to mine! Cheers. I couldn’t find any mention of the 40mm. I guess that’s not a bad idea. I suspect that’s a much lighter round just looking at it.
Pakistan is really angry this time. Understandable, if over 20 soldiers have really been killed by the strikes.
Convoys of supplies blocked, and the road from Karachi to Afghanistan is now closed.
The US better conclude rapidly the negotiations for opening alternative supply ways into Afghanistan, because this looks like a crisis that could last a pretty long time…
Chris.B.
Looks like Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgystan are in for a windfall! Anyone know what the state of the Northern Supply route is like?
Tubby
Is there any information on why it happened – I’m not buying that an attack by both helicopters and fighters on two border posts is a mistake, my guts say that either the border posts tried to stop a US ground unit from exfiltrating from Pakistan and got crushed or insurgents were driven back to the border posts, allowed to pass and then the border posts fired on pursuing US troops.
DominicJ
chris b
not good enough!
Fine for ammo, no use for mre’s and water bottles.
James
This looks like being a major logistic commitment, probably taking many months. Whether they take the train option or evacuate the kit through Karachi into a number of commercial ships, there’s still a 500 mile road move from Helmand through either Pakistan or up to Mazar-i-Sharif. Our logistic forces are going to be very stretched during the period, so lets hope nothing kicks off elsewhere in the world!
tubby
afghan units frequently call fire ON pakistan border posts.
Mark
6 missing 2 rescued in cargo ship sinking in Irish sea 4 SAR helicopters 2 lifeboats tasked. Very rough weather last night for all concerned. Weres a nimrod when you need one. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15908292
paul g
@james, nice to give the nasties a 3 year planning window though!!
ArmChairCivvy
Russia wants to promote the international use of their railways as China plans to link up with Kazakhstan – and believe it or not, India
Phil
***Cheap Shot Warning***
But I thought the Army couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without a Royal Navy battle-fleet?
Think Defence
Perhaps the Navy are going to fire the army through one of those tunnels on the route
James
(1) Re that 500 mile road move from Helmand to either (north) the railhead at Mazar-i-Sharif or (south) the dock at Karachi. That’s either a regiment of loggie low loaders or some seriously knackered tracks and a regiment’s worth of REMEs deployed into some fairly remote equipment repair points along the route, all needing to be guarded. Big op, indeed.
(2) And why does my spell-check persists in trying to convert “loggie” into loggia? Is it because the software knows that most loggies have about the hard life expected of a Greek aristocrat who lives in a building with some very comfortable and decorative naturally aired cool and sun-shaded reclining areas? Maybe this Apple Mac stuff is smarter than I realised. There’s a reason that the British logistics battalion in Split during the Bosnian war was not known by its’ formal name of BRIT LOG BAT but rather BRIT SWAN TWISTING BY THE POOL BAT. (Paul G, no need to go ballistic
Brian Black
A ‘new Dunkirk’.
So in chaos and under sustained enemy attack we shall abandon all heavy equipment and stores; and assuming the same ratio as the original Dunkirk we shall also leave behind close to 1200 PoW.
But I thought the Army couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without a Royal Navy battle-fleet?”
- Okay, I’ll bite.
- You’re right of course. It is a cheap shot because Afghanistan is a land war, isn’t it?
- It may therefore surprise you that as of two months ago, 16,714 Naval Service personnel (8,591 Royal Navy and 8,123 Royal Marines) have qualified for HERRICK (Afghanistan) Operational Service Medals and /or clasps with many of them (e.g. FAA, RMs, Medics, etc) racking up three or more tours. Not bad going for the smallest of the services whose core business is to man, maintain and operate a brigade of amphibious forces plus a fleet of ships, submarines and aircraft worldwide, is it?
Rupert Fiennes
Well, most of the supplies so far have come via Karachi and by ship. The USN battle group can both assure their arrival and poise as an implicit threat to the nuttier wings of the Pakistani military
paul g
dunservin, you forgot the navy medic winning the MC all 5 foot nothing of her!! See and i’m an ex pongo, doing my bit to bring us all together in a group hug.
don’t worry james 20 odd years of sitting in a box body trying my hardest to use all of the 30+ mains plugs was a chore, still thank goodness for dvd players, x boxes and laptops, not only filled the plugs but helped pass the time on exercise!
(inbetween popping out with the black hand gang to rescue cav chaps who were bogged in again)!!!
touché sir
Phil
- It may therefore surprise you that as of two months ago, 16,714 Naval Service personnel (8,591 Royal Navy and 8,123 Royal Marines) have qualified for HERRICK (Afghanistan) Operational Service Medals and /or clasps with many of them (e.g. FAA, RMs, Medics, etc) racking up three or more tours. Not bad going for the smallest of the services whose core business is to man, maintain and operate a brigade of amphibious forces plus a fleet of ships, submarines and aircraft worldwide, is it?
No it doesn’t surprise me at all, I handed over to Navy medics in April this year
I was being mischievous but tongue was firmly in cheek.
My comment though, was born from claims by some that the Army is strategically immobile without a battle fleet to defend sea lanes – which is simply not true in most cases.
In level flight at high altitude it can “Supercruise” without the afterburner, but it would need the extra power across the full flight regime like most aircraft.
Phil – “eyes bigger than belly” – Love it !
From UK armed forces perspective surely the main failure was the inability of the Chief of the General Staff to explain to frikkin “lefty do-gooder” politicians (“a force for good”) that we really did not have the man power to crack on with what we had already started in Afghanistan, AND to get involved in Iraq.
Of course, if any of those politicians had studied any history, and particularly military history, and were a little more “real-politik” oriented (you know, like DomJ) perhaps Afghanistan would have been about helping war-lords destroy the Taliban – with no commitment what-so-ever to “nation building” clearly based on the lack of troops available to create the required density.
Phil and Jed – you don’t really expect Politicians to live within their means do you?
I think I proposed something along these lines a while back. I can’t remember the precise term I used but I think it was something like “Ink Blot Strategy”, the idea being to establish a secure base of operations somewhere (preferably one easy to defend) and to just gradually spread out from there, much like a blot of ink on a piece of paper.
So that would mean just reaching out to the surrounding population, using foot patrols and medical aid to bring onside the local population. Leaning on the under water knife waters to do a lot of the work “outside the fence” and providing rapid heliborne infantry support and helicopter/aircraft/artillery strike missions when needed.
All that would tie in with training of Afghan security forces, who would be pushed at every opportunity to take the lead.
Very much a start small, grow very gradually type approach, starting back in 2001 before the Insurgency had a chance to gain momentum.
Ink spot was the strategy that failed. You brasses up hundreds of INS on the ramparts but achieved bigger all in the medium term. You don’t need ink spots, you need ink floods and ink pools. Saturate the area. Build capacity, and then move on.
Urgh sodding iPhone typos that I can’t edit! The ANA are pushed to take the lead, sometimes reluctantly! As ever it’s a leader thing, if you have a killer they tend to shoot up the ranks in an expanding army leaving less driven at the subaltern level. Things hopefully will even out over time. The current strategy is working, but people refuse to believe it because we’ve not vanquished an army nor will we leave Disneyland behind. But as I argue, such decisive victories were simply a mid 20th century abberation
I think Jed, there was a fundamental mistake made about what we were facing in 2006. Or perhaps we knew, but like Arnhem, the pressures were there to go anyway. There was a decade of thinking we, the west, could do as much with less thanks to networking etc. I really don’t know what the dynamics behind the scenes were, we’ll have to wait for the Cabinet papers to come out. I suspect it was a mixture of hubris and the blind leading the blind.
I recently posted some links to Russian pre-manufactured fortifications on the thread of the new Pill box article and I read an article some time back about the idea of using forts in COIN operations. What do people think about using modern “Forts” in situations like Afghanistan? Could they be used in other situations, or has the development of huge penetrating bombs (as highlighted in another article) doomed such ideas?
I can’t find the article I mention above at the moment but did come across this interesting paper; its a bit old but still…
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA240407
This may be it but if so I read it in a different format…
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/milreview/demarest2.pdf
GJ
Generaly speaking, I’m not a fan of “forts”, its too easy just to pummel them out of existance with heavy artilery, and the hammer always beats the shield in the end.
Your far better protected with dispersion, concealment and then “digging in”.
Afghanistan is of course, somewhat different, because heavy firepower is not available, but even then, fortifications need to be built with a purpose in mind.
The most obvious one would be to protect the Afghan ring road, but even with nothing bigger than section houses, and no closer than 100 metres apart, you would need 176,000 men in them at any one time.
The quarter of a million strong Afghan security forces could man them, with all their manpower, working two weeks on, one week off.
Stretching them out to 200m makes it a bit easier, but also means 40men are guarding 1km of road.
In a bunker, with machine guns, its not impossible, but its not easy either, and of course, the Afghans have proven extremely unwilling to stand guard duty and not steal from passers by
Gabby had captured an interesting contestant for the FRES UV cum the cancelled tactical multi-role thing
- A french programme, 1000 units for a thousand million (euros)
- not sure where the topic will slot on our army thread
@ Phil,
iPhone’s will be the death of you mate. Get yourself a good, sturdy brick!
Now you sure we’re talking about the same ink? I’m talking Hewlett Packard, black, e34?
My thinking was to find a base somewhere and drop a brigade on it, literally smothering as you say the local area. Then from there softly, softly, catchy, monkey.
oh eck!!
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-cracks-stop-vertical-landings-on-some-f-35bs-365059/
Sorry for the long link.. Daily Mailograph are reporting Westminster being sent to Libya with low ammunition stocks. Don’t know the truth of the matter, but if as reported its a sign that (a) there isn’t enough to go round (b) there isn’t the infrastructure to cope with the unforseen contingency (c) someone has pretty epic views on risk management (or not).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8905432/Navy-frigate-sent-to-Libya-with-four-missiles.html
RFA workers vote for strike action
http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=18072
Does this go for all sponsored reserves like airtanker too perhaps?
sack ‘em then, plenty of RN leaving to take their place
http://brahmand.com/news/Russian-Navy-plans-to-induct-10-conventional-subs-by-2020/8500/1/13.html
10 new subs and there’s will be on time and on buget.
adam
russia frequently makes these big announcements, the kit never actualy turns up.
Announcements are free, kit aint
There is a rumor that said we would do the “Maritime Afloat Reach and Sustainability” boats with you. Normally, in December, our two governments will meet on this topic. I don’t know more about that.
Nothing new about the tanker confirmation by the French Air Force commander (5-7 initially),
but Project Eagle seems to have moved from the old 707 AWACS planes to these new and roomy ones – and for joint use between UK & France
- interesting stuff about UAV ISDs, too
” The new French A330s would be pooled with the UK, and there would be discussions with the RAF over the addition of command-and-control capabilities to the joint fleet. France would eventually acquire 14 A330MRTTs, Palomeros added, with a second batch serving to replace the service’s A340 and A310 VIP and transport fleet.
Palomeros also confirmed that the French Air Force would not introduce the Anglo-French Telemos UAV until at least 2020. It is a proposed development of the BAE Systems Mantis medium-range long-endurance UAV, which has already flown. France recently decided to adapt the IAI Heron TP to meet near-term requirements.”
A snippet from the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff:
“”We are not likely to have as our next fight a counterinsurgency,” he said…
America’s enemies and competitors are “coming up with new asymmetric advantages. They’ve been studying us closely…,” he said. So, “we need to avoid the temptation to look in our rear view mirror.”
Our future conflicts, the vice chairman said, will probably occur “in a far more technically challenging environment.” As he described it, the fight will be much closer to a conventional military conflict, characterized by “intense electronic warfighting,” swarm attacks and cyberwar.”
- so, conventional… means what in kit?
- electronic warfighting (on the scene, as part of ops) highlighted separately from cyberwar… no wonder the nxt-gen UCAVs will be preprogrammed for their mission, and satellite comms are being backed-up by more orders for comms-relay jets
“http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-cracks-stop-vertical-landings-on-some-f-35bs-365059/”
Cracks in the VTOL fan after just 18 days of at sea ops?
Now THAT sucks.
time to say goodbye the deal on the harriers is done for $180m
http://www.key.aero/view_news.asp?ID=4500&thisSection=military
Gabby
The two things are not related.
“The two things are not related.”
Probably no. Still, the component is cracked after living a very fraction of the service life it was expected to last. And that sucks regardless of other considerations.
They say it was expected and that the fifth F35B and successive ones have already a differently designed component to remedy.
We will see.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/CdsWereOnRouteToDeliverAfghanistanStrategy.htm
The CDS on Afghanistan. Interesting reading.
Gabby
Def no bf1 and 3 have similar issues. These parts were produced prior to full analysis being completed (long lead time) and were subsequently replaced on the line prior to LRIP jet production same thing happens in ever new a/c built be they miltary or civil some even after they’ve been in service for a few years. Thats why no one wants to buy the first few a/c.
Phil, need to ask a dumb question.
In your link, when you scroll down near the bottom there is a picture of an Afghan Soldier holding an RPG. Except I don’t recognise the munition that’s loaded into it? What the hell is that?
Not a clue. I am guessing a sub calibre training round.
Right, now that I’m on every watch list for googling RPG7 ammunition I know the answer, apparently there are 40mm HE rockets and he looks like he has one loaded.
“Right, now that I’m on every watch list for googling RPG7 ammunition”
– They’ve got your cell lined up just next to mine! Cheers. I couldn’t find any mention of the 40mm. I guess that’s not a bad idea. I suspect that’s a much lighter round just looking at it.
http://bfbs.com/news/worldwide/reprieve-axed-sentinel-r1-spy-plane-53697.html
As suspected from reading between the lines from various sources.
Good news.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=8374057&c=ASI&s=AIR
Pakistan is really angry this time. Understandable, if over 20 soldiers have really been killed by the strikes.
Convoys of supplies blocked, and the road from Karachi to Afghanistan is now closed.
The US better conclude rapidly the negotiations for opening alternative supply ways into Afghanistan, because this looks like a crisis that could last a pretty long time…
Looks like Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgystan are in for a windfall! Anyone know what the state of the Northern Supply route is like?
Is there any information on why it happened – I’m not buying that an attack by both helicopters and fighters on two border posts is a mistake, my guts say that either the border posts tried to stop a US ground unit from exfiltrating from Pakistan and got crushed or insurgents were driven back to the border posts, allowed to pass and then the border posts fired on pursuing US troops.
chris b
not good enough!
Fine for ammo, no use for mre’s and water bottles.
This looks like being a major logistic commitment, probably taking many months. Whether they take the train option or evacuate the kit through Karachi into a number of commercial ships, there’s still a 500 mile road move from Helmand through either Pakistan or up to Mazar-i-Sharif. Our logistic forces are going to be very stretched during the period, so lets hope nothing kicks off elsewhere in the world!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066718/The-new-Dunkirk–British-forces-use-Tsars-railway-travel-3-500-miles-home-train-Afghanistan.html
tubby
afghan units frequently call fire ON pakistan border posts.
6 missing 2 rescued in cargo ship sinking in Irish sea 4 SAR helicopters 2 lifeboats tasked. Very rough weather last night for all concerned. Weres a nimrod when you need one.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15908292
@james, nice to give the nasties a 3 year planning window though!!
Russia wants to promote the international use of their railways as China plans to link up with Kazakhstan – and believe it or not, India
***Cheap Shot Warning***
But I thought the Army couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without a Royal Navy battle-fleet?
Perhaps the Navy are going to fire the army through one of those tunnels on the route
(1) Re that 500 mile road move from Helmand to either (north) the railhead at Mazar-i-Sharif or (south) the dock at Karachi. That’s either a regiment of loggie low loaders or some seriously knackered tracks and a regiment’s worth of REMEs deployed into some fairly remote equipment repair points along the route, all needing to be guarded. Big op, indeed.
(2) And why does my spell-check persists in trying to convert “loggie” into loggia? Is it because the software knows that most loggies have about the hard life expected of a Greek aristocrat who lives in a building with some very comfortable and decorative naturally aired cool and sun-shaded reclining areas? Maybe this Apple Mac stuff is smarter than I realised. There’s a reason that the British logistics battalion in Split during the Bosnian war was not known by its’ formal name of BRIT LOG BAT but rather BRIT SWAN TWISTING BY THE POOL BAT. (Paul G, no need to go ballistic
A ‘new Dunkirk’.
So in chaos and under sustained enemy attack we shall abandon all heavy equipment and stores; and assuming the same ratio as the original Dunkirk we shall also leave behind close to 1200 PoW.
@ TD and Phil
http://500motivators.com/plog-content/thumbs/motivate/me/large/194-implied-facepalm-when-something-is-so-fucking-retarded-a-full-and-proper-facepalm-is-not-even-necessary.jpg
(Jokin’ of course…….. )
@Phil
“***Cheap Shot Warning***
But I thought the Army couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without a Royal Navy battle-fleet?”
- Okay, I’ll bite.
- You’re right of course. It is a cheap shot because Afghanistan is a land war, isn’t it?
- It may therefore surprise you that as of two months ago, 16,714 Naval Service personnel (8,591 Royal Navy and 8,123 Royal Marines) have qualified for HERRICK (Afghanistan) Operational Service Medals and /or clasps with many of them (e.g. FAA, RMs, Medics, etc) racking up three or more tours. Not bad going for the smallest of the services whose core business is to man, maintain and operate a brigade of amphibious forces plus a fleet of ships, submarines and aircraft worldwide, is it?
Well, most of the supplies so far have come via Karachi and by ship. The USN battle group can both assure their arrival and poise as an implicit threat to the nuttier wings of the Pakistani military
dunservin, you forgot the navy medic winning the MC all 5 foot nothing of her!! See and i’m an ex pongo, doing my bit to bring us all together in a group hug.
don’t worry james 20 odd years of sitting in a box body trying my hardest to use all of the 30+ mains plugs was a chore, still thank goodness for dvd players, x boxes and laptops, not only filled the plugs but helped pass the time on exercise!
(inbetween popping out with the black hand gang to rescue cav chaps who were bogged in again)!!!
touché sir
- It may therefore surprise you that as of two months ago, 16,714 Naval Service personnel (8,591 Royal Navy and 8,123 Royal Marines) have qualified for HERRICK (Afghanistan) Operational Service Medals and /or clasps with many of them (e.g. FAA, RMs, Medics, etc) racking up three or more tours. Not bad going for the smallest of the services whose core business is to man, maintain and operate a brigade of amphibious forces plus a fleet of ships, submarines and aircraft worldwide, is it?
No it doesn’t surprise me at all, I handed over to Navy medics in April this year
I was being mischievous but tongue was firmly in cheek.
My comment though, was born from claims by some that the Army is strategically immobile without a battle fleet to defend sea lanes – which is simply not true in most cases.