Think Defence hopes to start sensible conversations about UK defence issues, no agenda or no campaign but there might be one or two posts on containers, bridges and mexeflotes!
1,350 thoughts on “Open Thread – Land, Sea and Air I”
mickp
Either Sea King I guess or the back up to that – Observers on top of tall buildings. The ‘no loss of operational capability’ comment will I’m sure get the treasury pondering over scrapping the E3 fleet
wf
@Gareth Jones: the USN is at present buying 75 brand new air-framed E2D’s. Chances of V22′s replacing same are zero!
Peter Elliott
@wf
USN carrier associated procurment appears locked into 50 year repalcement cycles. While they are buying E2D now it doesn’t mean they’re not also thinking about what might come after.
As it happens unless V-22 can evolve into a 10,000m machine I don’t see it being the next solution. More likely is an evolution of a fixed wing platform with more rounded capacity than E2/C2 that can also fill in the S3, F18 AAR & EF 18 roles when those planes are all no longer around. Got to be cheaper to do that than mess with the F35.
Also I don’t think USN trusts USMC. They will want a solution ‘invented here’ (ie with fixed wings).
Topman
@ PE, it probably be the NATO E3 fleet in Germany.
Peter Elliott
Thanks Topman
It will throw quite a few things open if our E3 fleet starts to show signs of being old and knackered just at this moment.
This at the same time as MPA seems to be drifting back to the top of the agenda, Rivet Joint just a short term fix, both Altas and Voyager struggling to get into service.
Possible opportunity for a flexible comprehensive soultion. Definite opportunity for another propper procurment fuck-up if we get too many thnings confused together.
Chaps, does anyone have the link for the time lapse video of the DDX/Zumwalt being assembled? Saw it last week, thought it was here somewhere, can’t find it on Google anywhere. My dad is very keen to see it being something of a ship spotter!
One of those interactive clickable datasets, downloadable for the truly obsessive.
I had no idea Nicaragua spent more on defence as a % of GDP than the USA!
James
…or that Eritrea appears to be world’s largest spender on defence as a % of GDP – 22%!
Some of the fantasy fleet / jets type threads on here may actually be achievable if we followed Eritrea’s lead.
Observer
“Lies, lies and statistics.”
20% of 100 pounds does not beat 5% of 1000. Maybe we should compare absolute amount spent in USD.
x
ArmChairCivvy
Nicaragua… well, they have to be ready to take on the USA (at the very least, the CIA)
Eritrea: beat Ethiopia in a WW1 type of confrontation (go compare population sizes!)
Anyway, the real “garrison states” would come out when you combine relative spend with the mobilisable manpower (Singapore hits close to Israel and the Koreas on such a scale)
- but just looking at James’s linked map: the Balkans (still!), the countries around S. China Sea, the Middle East (extended well along the Red Sea) and southern half of Africa, south of the Congo but north of the RSA; they are the ones taking threats (external & internal) seriously
ALL Politicians are the Same
China only spends 2%, really?
Observer
APATS yes, the rest are… farmers aid… they need well armoured tractors to protect them rampaging water buffalo. It’s just coincidence the vent for the diesel engine is 105mm in diamater.
RE the missile story, interestingly in the Rafale selection it was mentioned that it being nuclear-capable may have played a role
“CCTV listed some of the missile’s shortcomings and said “it does not pose a threat in reality”.
But defence analyst Rahul Bedi says a successful test flight of the Agni-V missile, which is capable of delivering a single 1.5-ton warhead deep inside nuclear rival China’s territory, would strengthen India’s nuclear deterrence once it comes into service by 2014-15.”
-if the above date is not wildly optimistic, Rafale will be lagging by several years (into service)
James
TD – please delete this if you believe it to be inappropriate.
Can anyone point me to a list of current UK EW Operational Support Programmes? I’ve been out of the ISTAR business for a while and was never an EWOS specialist, but have a professional need to get myself up to speed reasonably quickly. Please, only open source stuff. If there are programme names, I can go away and google more details.
ArmChairCivvy
Hi James,
In the procurement organisation there is a dedicated IPT for it. So if you have any sources better than the Desider, there should be a list of programmes under that IPT
James
@ ACC,
thanks for the thought (Desider). Last time I was peripherally involved, it was both the Naval EW IPTs and Joint Electronic Support IPTs. Any advances on those 2?
Think Defence
Have a look at Project SHEPARD, I think that is the replacement for the Defence Electronic Warfare Centre Improvement Programme but not sure how wide that goes
You could (as ACC says) have a wade through the online directory for DE&S
The US Army is to buy another 24,000 M4 at about £450 or so a copy. That is £10.8 million in total. That is on top of a recent order for 120,000 that cost £56million. Chump change really. Still the SA80 is best rifle in Afghanistan, supposedly; keep drinking the kool aid……
Americans did not like their FireScout being shot down in Libya:
“the Fire Scout — first envisioned as an armed drone, back in the late 90s — is going to start firing weapons again. The first tests will be with the laser-guided Griffin missile, which carries at 13-pound warhead. Trials with the 2.75-inch rockets of the Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System are expected to follow. “
Mike
The Royal Canadian Navy’s british (but yet heavily modified, mothballed and towed across the N. Atlantic) subs have caused yet more problems, and apparently there are strong calls for the UK to compensate them for their trouble.
At least we can say we arent alone in procurement and modification cluster mucks…
“They flog you some dead ducks of submarines and won’t give you compensation and then give you £2 million to go away and be quiet”
Sir Humphry on his blog mentioned the Aussies desires and problems in sub procurement and ops; with canada and Australia both wanting subs; could some sort of joint industry option be available for our sub industry? Germany could cash in on that, as we lost our diesel boat industry…Dunno.
Also worthy to note there are strong grumblings about their F35 procurement as well.
@10:25 x came up with the $600 a piece mini-UAV
- put this kit on it “an electro-optical color payload, fitted with CCD sensor with x10 optical zoom for daylight operations. An optional night sensor uses low-light level camera. The weight of the D-STAMP daylight payload is 650 gr. A night capable payload is also in development – it will weigh 0.98 kg”
If you need the images direct to the firing battery, then the range limitation is 15 km.
-if you also have a relay up in the air, then the range is the same as for GMLRS
And at these prices you can afford to lose a few
How about a swarm of slightly bigger ones, flown from the back seats of a Wildcat. For a 5kg payload you can also have on each UAV a stabilised laser designator. Have two or three Apaches, and the area covered, with immediate reaction to anything found is enormous
jedibeeftrix
@ X & ACC
i think i might get to see that UAV at the end of the month.
ArmChairCivvy
Hi jedi,
I was of course painting a scenario
- if you buy, today, a complete system with 55 UAVs with those payloads, minus the laser designators, that will be euros 30m
- a good number for 6-7 bde’s?
IXION
ACC
As I suggested a while back in one of my posts on this site. Technology is moving on and opening not only new vistas for weapons but cheap ones as well.
The RM used to be called Millets marines because their kit was so crap they had to buy most of it from Millets.
Perhaps we will soon be in the era of Maplin’s Navy/ AAC,,, BTW if we can do it so can terrorists…/ Iran/ whatever…
What price a T45′s silo of big anti air weapons when a hundred toy Helicopters each carrying an RPG warhead appear over the horizon??? at 100 mph.
Mike W
Sorry to interrupt this interesting discussion but I have just read an intriguing headline on the “Jane’s Defence Weekly” site. Unfortunately, I don’t take the journal (can’t afford it!) and so am left with a fragment, which is a bit frustrating. It went something like “The Royal Marines BVS 10 have been withdrawn from operational service because of the continuing wrangling over the defence budget.. .” (my paraphrase). It seems more than a little ludicrous to withdraw the Vikings, which are already in service, because of defence expenditure disagreements! Does anyone take the journal and know what’s going on? I might have got it completely wrong!
a
What price a T45′s silo of big anti air weapons when a hundred toy Helicopters each carrying an RPG warhead appear over the horizon??? at 100 mph.
You’d need to hit a warship with a hell of a lot of RPG warheads before you sunk it, or even scored a mission kill. At 100 mph those helicopters come over the T45′s radar horizon about 12 minutes before they reach the ship itself. Forget about Sea Viper, that’s enough time to fire 300 114mm rounds. Flak curtain time…
Peter Elliott
Also the sort of threat that presumably Phalanx or Goalkeeper would be well able to take down.
“Flak curtain time…”
x
A sweep with Sampson turned up to 11 would fry model shop electronics…….
Observer
PE, most ships are doing without Phalanx or Goalkeeper nowadays, too limited a system. They’d be using the 4.5″/76mm/56mm/30mm guns for swatting flies.
Or they could use x’s emp deathray to do it As long as it works.
IXION
X
Good!
Of course if the Maplins specials happend to be chaff for a half decent ASM turning radar up to 11, not good.
Or what if Maplins special targeting for somthing a bit more warry.
Or T45 not in clear water giving it 12 mins warning etc etc
Just saying do not underestimate what few geeks can knock up given time.
After all we lost a ship in the nameless isles because some argies welded an excocet case to the back of a truck.
IXION
Also
Ok RPG warhead not going to kill a T45, but several could give it a headache.. after all Sampson would not react well to a direct hit…
All Politicians are the Same
Ixion, these remote controlled helos with the massive maplin range are controlled by? A ship, an aircraft? Not something that may be detected on ESM and killed? Sometimes I do believe that posters on here believe that professionals never have these conversations or think outside the box with the added benefit of up to date and classified tech knowledge.
x
@ APATS “and killed?”
You mean kinetically or soft?
Wish I had never posted the bloomin’ link now.
IXION
APATS
I am sure least I hope that the professionals ARE having these conversations, and that the Maplins helicopter swarm is I doubt a threat to most of our systems/ aircraft whatever, IF it is expecting trouble.
Likewise I am sure those in the know have though of a dozen different otherthings Maplins sell that could do nasty things when tweeked….
I was merely pointing out that commerically there is kit that can be used to put together some potwentially dangerous stuff- ok not in stormshadow class.
However remeber one of the problems with millitary kit is that by and large by the time it gets int service the electronics can be stone age…
Eg reasons given for the retirement of both concorde and space shuttle was that gettting componants for the electronics was becoming impossible.
One of the reasons for the F35 is that some of the electronics on the F16, are early 70′s!
As the rate of electronic advance gets faster and faster, what can be done with it becomes more and more of an issues.
OK lets fry it with a juiced up sampson, only the next big advance in consumer electrics will probably be emp hardened, to withstand potential terrorst devices and ‘sunstorm’ (there are govt meteings about how to role this out going on now).
Making stuff go very fast and go bang when it gets there is very simple technology, for chrisakes Top gear launched a reliant robin thousands of feet in the air. The tricky bit has always been guiding it-that is getting easier and easier.
I am not panicing or trying to start one, just saying the professionals had better be sititng arround with cups of coffee occasionaly discussing this stuff
Either Sea King I guess or the back up to that – Observers on top of tall buildings. The ‘no loss of operational capability’ comment will I’m sure get the treasury pondering over scrapping the E3 fleet
@Gareth Jones: the USN is at present buying 75 brand new air-framed E2D’s. Chances of V22′s replacing same are zero!
@wf
USN carrier associated procurment appears locked into 50 year repalcement cycles. While they are buying E2D now it doesn’t mean they’re not also thinking about what might come after.
As it happens unless V-22 can evolve into a 10,000m machine I don’t see it being the next solution. More likely is an evolution of a fixed wing platform with more rounded capacity than E2/C2 that can also fill in the S3, F18 AAR & EF 18 roles when those planes are all no longer around. Got to be cheaper to do that than mess with the F35.
Also I don’t think USN trusts USMC. They will want a solution ‘invented here’ (ie with fixed wings).
@ PE, it probably be the NATO E3 fleet in Germany.
Thanks Topman
It will throw quite a few things open if our E3 fleet starts to show signs of being old and knackered just at this moment.
This at the same time as MPA seems to be drifting back to the top of the agenda, Rivet Joint just a short term fix, both Altas and Voyager struggling to get into service.
Possible opportunity for a flexible comprehensive soultion. Definite opportunity for another propper procurment fuck-up if we get too many thnings confused together.
Doesn’t the P-3 Orion have an AWACS variant…
@ Chris B – “Doesn’t the P-3 Orion have an AWACS variant…”
It would appear so…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-3_Orion_variants#P-3AEW.26C
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CBP_P-3_Orion.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lockheed_AWACS,_1984.jpg
Interesting piece about the options for a MPA for New Zealand:
http://sites.google.com/site/defenceallmedia/fixedwingfisheriessurveillance
Chaps, does anyone have the link for the time lapse video of the DDX/Zumwalt being assembled? Saw it last week, thought it was here somewhere, can’t find it on Google anywhere. My dad is very keen to see it being something of a ship spotter!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EADS_CASA_C-295_AEW.jpg
http://defensetech.org/2012/04/13/army-wants-to-replace-c-12-fleet/
U.K. May Retain C-130Ks Longer Over Upgrade Delay
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120416/DEFREG01/304160007/U-K-May-Retain-C-130Ks-Longer-Over-Upgrade-Delay?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
Interesting visualisation of world defence spending published by the Grauniad. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/apr/17/arms-spending-map-world
One of those interactive clickable datasets, downloadable for the truly obsessive.
I had no idea Nicaragua spent more on defence as a % of GDP than the USA!
…or that Eritrea appears to be world’s largest spender on defence as a % of GDP – 22%!
Some of the fantasy fleet / jets type threads on here may actually be achievable if we followed Eritrea’s lead.
“Lies, lies and statistics.”
20% of 100 pounds does not beat 5% of 1000. Maybe we should compare absolute amount spent in USD.
Nicaragua… well, they have to be ready to take on the USA (at the very least, the CIA)
Eritrea: beat Ethiopia in a WW1 type of confrontation (go compare population sizes!)
Anyway, the real “garrison states” would come out when you combine relative spend with the mobilisable manpower (Singapore hits close to Israel and the Koreas on such a scale)
- but just looking at James’s linked map: the Balkans (still!), the countries around S. China Sea, the Middle East (extended well along the Red Sea) and southern half of Africa, south of the Congo but north of the RSA; they are the ones taking threats (external & internal) seriously
China only spends 2%, really?
APATS yes, the rest are… farmers aid… they need well armoured tractors to protect them rampaging water buffalo. It’s just coincidence the vent for the diesel engine is 105mm in diamater.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17765653
India test fires an ICBM.
RE the missile story, interestingly in the Rafale selection it was mentioned that it being nuclear-capable may have played a role
“CCTV listed some of the missile’s shortcomings and said “it does not pose a threat in reality”.
But defence analyst Rahul Bedi says a successful test flight of the Agni-V missile, which is capable of delivering a single 1.5-ton warhead deep inside nuclear rival China’s territory, would strengthen India’s nuclear deterrence once it comes into service by 2014-15.”
-if the above date is not wildly optimistic, Rafale will be lagging by several years (into service)
TD – please delete this if you believe it to be inappropriate.
Can anyone point me to a list of current UK EW Operational Support Programmes? I’ve been out of the ISTAR business for a while and was never an EWOS specialist, but have a professional need to get myself up to speed reasonably quickly. Please, only open source stuff. If there are programme names, I can go away and google more details.
Hi James,
In the procurement organisation there is a dedicated IPT for it. So if you have any sources better than the Desider, there should be a list of programmes under that IPT
@ ACC,
thanks for the thought (Desider). Last time I was peripherally involved, it was both the Naval EW IPTs and Joint Electronic Support IPTs. Any advances on those 2?
Have a look at Project SHEPARD, I think that is the replacement for the Defence Electronic Warfare Centre Improvement Programme but not sure how wide that goes
You could (as ACC says) have a wade through the online directory for DE&S
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/02/rank-inflation-am-more-confused-than-ever/
At the bottom of the link
Just found out Daring is cream crackered due to a serious fault known about since she was taken into service.
http://dalyhistory.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/daring-knackered/
FFS
http://nosint.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/china-and-russia-launch-naval-drills.html
The issues with tanker and there fixes
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/in-focus-shared-voyager-delivers-the-rafs-new-tankertransport-370777/
Thanks Mark, a good read
The US Army is to buy another 24,000 M4 at about £450 or so a copy. That is £10.8 million in total. That is on top of a recent order for 120,000 that cost £56million. Chump change really. Still the SA80 is best rifle in Afghanistan, supposedly; keep drinking the kool aid……
Rotary MFTS on hold
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120423/DEFREG01/304230003/U-K-May-Ditch-Plan-New-Helo-Trainers?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE
How about a Sterling in 7.62 NATO
http://homemadedefense.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/sterling-762-nato.html
Mad or what?
Americans did not like their FireScout being shot down in Libya:
“the Fire Scout — first envisioned as an armed drone, back in the late 90s — is going to start firing weapons again. The first tests will be with the laser-guided Griffin missile, which carries at 13-pound warhead. Trials with the 2.75-inch rockets of the Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System are expected to follow. “
The Royal Canadian Navy’s british (but yet heavily modified, mothballed and towed across the N. Atlantic) subs have caused yet more problems, and apparently there are strong calls for the UK to compensate them for their trouble.
At least we can say we arent alone in procurement and modification cluster mucks…
“They flog you some dead ducks of submarines and won’t give you compensation and then give you £2 million to go away and be quiet”
Sir Humphry on his blog mentioned the Aussies desires and problems in sub procurement and ops; with canada and Australia both wanting subs; could some sort of joint industry option be available for our sub industry? Germany could cash in on that, as we lost our diesel boat industry…Dunno.
Also worthy to note there are strong grumblings about their F35 procurement as well.
http://www.event38.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=E382
Off a post on Military Photos,
http://defense-update.com/20120503_mississippi_delivered.html
http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/05/03/the-navys-new-sub-comes-in-a-year-early-how/
As Punch would say, “That’s the way to do it!!”
@10:25 x came up with the $600 a piece mini-UAV
- put this kit on it “an electro-optical color payload, fitted with CCD sensor with x10 optical zoom for daylight operations. An optional night sensor uses low-light level camera. The weight of the D-STAMP daylight payload is 650 gr. A night capable payload is also in development – it will weigh 0.98 kg”
If you need the images direct to the firing battery, then the range limitation is 15 km.
-if you also have a relay up in the air, then the range is the same as for GMLRS
And at these prices you can afford to lose a few
How about a swarm of slightly bigger ones, flown from the back seats of a Wildcat. For a 5kg payload you can also have on each UAV a stabilised laser designator. Have two or three Apaches, and the area covered, with immediate reaction to anything found is enormous
@ X & ACC
i think i might get to see that UAV at the end of the month.
Hi jedi,
I was of course painting a scenario
- if you buy, today, a complete system with 55 UAVs with those payloads, minus the laser designators, that will be euros 30m
- a good number for 6-7 bde’s?
ACC
As I suggested a while back in one of my posts on this site. Technology is moving on and opening not only new vistas for weapons but cheap ones as well.
The RM used to be called Millets marines because their kit was so crap they had to buy most of it from Millets.
Perhaps we will soon be in the era of Maplin’s Navy/ AAC,,, BTW if we can do it so can terrorists…/ Iran/ whatever…
What price a T45′s silo of big anti air weapons when a hundred toy Helicopters each carrying an RPG warhead appear over the horizon??? at 100 mph.
Sorry to interrupt this interesting discussion but I have just read an intriguing headline on the “Jane’s Defence Weekly” site. Unfortunately, I don’t take the journal (can’t afford it!) and so am left with a fragment, which is a bit frustrating. It went something like “The Royal Marines BVS 10 have been withdrawn from operational service because of the continuing wrangling over the defence budget.. .” (my paraphrase). It seems more than a little ludicrous to withdraw the Vikings, which are already in service, because of defence expenditure disagreements! Does anyone take the journal and know what’s going on? I might have got it completely wrong!
What price a T45′s silo of big anti air weapons when a hundred toy Helicopters each carrying an RPG warhead appear over the horizon??? at 100 mph.
You’d need to hit a warship with a hell of a lot of RPG warheads before you sunk it, or even scored a mission kill. At 100 mph those helicopters come over the T45′s radar horizon about 12 minutes before they reach the ship itself. Forget about Sea Viper, that’s enough time to fire 300 114mm rounds. Flak curtain time…
Also the sort of threat that presumably Phalanx or Goalkeeper would be well able to take down.
“Flak curtain time…”
A sweep with Sampson turned up to 11 would fry model shop electronics…….
PE, most ships are doing without Phalanx or Goalkeeper nowadays, too limited a system. They’d be using the 4.5″/76mm/56mm/30mm guns for swatting flies.
Or they could use x’s emp deathray to do it
As long as it works.
X
Good!
Of course if the Maplins specials happend to be chaff for a half decent ASM turning radar up to 11, not good.
Or what if Maplins special targeting for somthing a bit more warry.
Or T45 not in clear water giving it 12 mins warning etc etc
Just saying do not underestimate what few geeks can knock up given time.
After all we lost a ship in the nameless isles because some argies welded an excocet case to the back of a truck.
Also
Ok RPG warhead not going to kill a T45, but several could give it a headache.. after all Sampson would not react well to a direct hit…
Ixion, these remote controlled helos with the massive maplin range are controlled by? A ship, an aircraft? Not something that may be detected on ESM and killed? Sometimes I do believe that posters on here believe that professionals never have these conversations or think outside the box with the added benefit of up to date and classified tech knowledge.
@ APATS “and killed?”
You mean kinetically or soft?
Wish I had never posted the bloomin’ link now.
APATS
I am sure least I hope that the professionals ARE having these conversations, and that the Maplins helicopter swarm is I doubt a threat to most of our systems/ aircraft whatever, IF it is expecting trouble.
Likewise I am sure those in the know have though of a dozen different otherthings Maplins sell that could do nasty things when tweeked….
I was merely pointing out that commerically there is kit that can be used to put together some potwentially dangerous stuff- ok not in stormshadow class.
However remeber one of the problems with millitary kit is that by and large by the time it gets int service the electronics can be stone age…
Eg reasons given for the retirement of both concorde and space shuttle was that gettting componants for the electronics was becoming impossible.
One of the reasons for the F35 is that some of the electronics on the F16, are early 70′s!
As the rate of electronic advance gets faster and faster, what can be done with it becomes more and more of an issues.
OK lets fry it with a juiced up sampson, only the next big advance in consumer electrics will probably be emp hardened, to withstand potential terrorst devices and ‘sunstorm’ (there are govt meteings about how to role this out going on now).
Making stuff go very fast and go bang when it gets there is very simple technology, for chrisakes Top gear launched a reliant robin thousands of feet in the air. The tricky bit has always been guiding it-that is getting easier and easier.
I am not panicing or trying to start one, just saying the professionals had better be sititng arround with cups of coffee occasionaly discussing this stuff