It is obvious from the comments that there is a pent up demand for flights of fancy and wishlists that contain 24 C17′s, 12 CVF and sharks with frickin laser beams 
Vent your spleen in comments.
PS
I have added a comment edit facility, you should be able to edit your comments for 30 minutes after posting as long as you are on the same IP address
Nicholas… Well said Sir! Trident needs to be replaced (ideally with Trident 2 and with 4 NEW British built Submarines). The costs of this are nowhere near the £100-120Billion figure the LibDems state. Yes this is one sacred Cow that must not be slaughtered.
The defence budget needs to increase to cover the roles that are being asked of our armed forces and to equip our forces for what the future may offer.
This means in very simple terms:
Army needs to increase substantially (40-50%)
Navy requires the 50+ Frigates/Destroyers detailed in the last SDR (That means 6 more T45s ordered immediately plus 12 C1, and 20-30 C2/C3s)
Bay and Albion Class fitted with Helicopter hangers and proper defences
4 Mistral type LPHD ships ordered to replace Ocean and the CVS’s
CVF built as a conventional aircraft carrier, with armoured hull and bulkheads, PAAMS/CAMM and operating Rafael/F18/Hawkeyes and Merlin’s (at least 60 in total)
Nimrod MRA4 increased to 21 plus 3-6 built to replace R1s
Typhoon T3b ordered (in FULL)
C17s increased to at least 12
Extra C130Js (10-15) ordered
A400M (made to work and 25-40 purchased)
A330 Tanker Bought not via PFI and 25-30 purchased (with boom, cargo doors and their own in-flight refuelling capability)
Sentinel R1s increased to 12
Reapers increased to 30
HC3/3a Merlin’s transferred to MCA instead of S92 PFI balls up.
New Merlin’s (hybrid design similar to HH71) ordered for RM and Army (circa 75 airframes)
Lynx Wildcat scrapped and replaced with militarised AW139 or 149 (at least 120 ordered)
Chinook fleet converted to CH47F and increased to 90
Apache upgraded with new gearbox to take the full power potential of RTM322 and another 60/70 ordered.
LPPV ordered in very large numbers to replace all Landrovers/Pinzgauers/most Jackals and Panther
Ranger ordered to supplement Ridgeback/Mastiff and fill gap left by FRES Utility.
M777 ordered and LIMARS restored
AMOS/NEMO Ordered in large numbers to supplement existing artillery
SV truck order changed to more HX rather than SX versions and fitted with proper IED defence and armour. Replacement for Drops purchased
More IED and Route clearance kit ordered
Plus,plus, plus….
Phil, can you finish the list off?
Apart from the odd tweak (for nuclear eterrent look at my comments on ‘A Cheaper Deterrent’, I’m not writing all that again!) its looks very credible, although I’m sure will trigger some debate.
Do we really need the A400M and extra C130Js? Wouldn’t it just be easier, simpler and ultimately cheaper to purchase more C17s and operate a single aircraft type in the Strategic Airlift role?
Looking ahead, the need for FRES Utility remains paramount. Based on our experience in Afghanistan, and the counter-insurgency role it has defined, we should have a very clear understanding of the type of vehicle required. I’d love to see Supacat design and build a best-in-class IED-proof 8 x 8 with state-of-the-art mobility and protection. (If we end up buying Boxer, then we will look stupid, even if we decide it is the best option.)
Another key area of future spend that’s looming is replacing SA80 with a new Small Arms Weapon System. Given the negative feedback from the UK, USA and Germany about 5.56 mm ammunition and our re-adoption of 7.62 mm weapons, a more cost-efficient option may be to adopt a single calibre system using an intermediate cartridge. This would save money as well as reducing the PBI’s load.
The one idea that the Conservatives have had that would definitely save money is to withdraw units based in Germany to the UK. The Cold War is over. We don’t need troops based there anymore, because the Russians are not about to invade. The armoured regiments could easily be absorbed into the Garrisons of Tidworth, Bovingdon, Catterick and York.
We also need to rationalise the number of helicopter airframes. We need Chinook and Apache, but we also need a Blackhawk equivalent. Merlin is good, but it’s big and primarily a naval helicopter, not a general utility and recce helicopter. Lynx is too small and doesn’t carry enough troops. Perhaps, newer Westland Agusta models might substitute the Lynx – as discussed here and a very good idea.
The JSF cost over-runs are not half as scary as doubts about its capabilities. If we pay more than anticipated for a flying white elephant, we will also look very imprudent.
Oooo! I’ll add my list especially for the navy I like shopping lists:-) UKIP wants to spend an extra 40% on defence or an extra 1% of GDP roughly an extra £16 Billion per year, yes please. My bonkers plans would cost over £30 Billion for naval shipbuilding alone although spread over 10 years it would be £3billion per and very busy shipyards. The Royal Marines would more than double in size however to reflect the more powerful Royal Navy and the focus on strategic raiding and flexible forces. The Army sadly would get the roughest deal as their numbers would stay around the 100,000 mark but they would be extensively reequipped and reorganised not all bad. The RAF would be mainly moved toward a support role of providing intelligence, transport and refuelling services and for air defence of the United Kingdom. They would still have a strike role but would play second fiddle to the Royal Navy with its carrier air power and cruise missiles launched from surface and sub surface platforms.
8 capital ships, consisting of the 2 improved or evolved CVF with ‘proper’ airgroups, 4 larger than mistral class LHA alongside the 2 Albion class vessels. There would also be the 4 standard bay class as well as 2 evolved bay class like we have discussed but these are not capital ships really as they are auxiliaries.
30 First rate escorts for protecting capital ships etc, consisting of 12 Type 45 air defence destroyers the 6 batch 2’s would have an additional Aft VLS adding 32 cells for TLAM and ABM weapons. I would also like 18 C1 class general purpose frigates essentially modern Type 23’s but with more flexibility.
36 Auxiliary escorts including 12 C2 Absalon derivatives to be used in a kind of Aviso role stationed or maintained deployed around the world. As well as 24 C3 type vessels designed to be highly flexible for Maritime security operations worldwide as well as minesweeping and survey duties depending on the need.
24 Submarines consisting of 12 Astute class SSN’s alongside 12 conventional SSK’s, yes there will be grumbles but I have my reasons and I’m not going to waste space pontificating right here and now. I’ll leave that for later unless Admin get’s annoyed at the wish lists etc and off topicness of it all
In response to Phil’s list there are naturally things I would change mainly nitpicking and changes because of my strong backing of a paramilitary coastguard organisation with its own MPA’s etc. Also because of my rather maritime centric approach to defence but anyhow continue with the list maybe we could have a ‘post your bonkers plans’ thread? I’ve got plenty.
Ok here’s a controversial idea thats been floating round my head
lets go “purple”, and by that I mean take the steps that have already been taken i.e joint force harrier, helicopter command, PJHQ etc to their full fruition. No army/navy/raf just UK armed forces plc.
To be honest I’ve no idea if this would save very much money but it would certainly rationalise command structures, maybe stop some of the inter-service squabbling that goes on. Think how much easier it might be to get money out of the treasury if the armed forces spoke with a single voice
C there would still be a Land Forces command, Maritime forces command and an Air Force command even within the Royal Navy for example you still have the Royal Marines and fleet air arm. If I could go completely radical without having to fight the services over it there would only be the Royal Navy, the MoD would be renamed the Admiralty, with massive a massive fleet air arm alongside the Royal marines. However I generally acknowledge that it’s not such a brilliant idea after all as there would still be problems and the other services would never accept just being components of a navy. Furthermore if going purple is a good idea and brought benefits why do more nations not amalgamate their forces like what smaller nations have done? There will always be fighting and squabbling no matter what you done apart from maybe as a complete dictatorship where one person could make the shopping lists and force structures.
I would also add the problem the services have is that there is no clear strategy or leadership we don’t have an anything centric defence policy or even a clear defence policy in ways. There is also the added problem of not enough money and no solid procurement plans into the future on how to spend that scarce cash. Other European nations AFAIK draw up proper binding defence procurement plans over 5 years agreed by coalition governments and continued after an election unlike the uncertainty in the UK.
first of all, c; no!!! example mention joint harrier to any navy bod and stand by for some severe growlling and questioning of the marital status of raf members parents.
before the lists descend into death stars and inter stellar cruisers, what would we realistically like to see, bear in mind the list of people that have looked at this site.
I would look at restructuring/relocation before buying . I’ll stick to one service as i hate typing, so let’s start with the RAF. IMHO we need to get to conflicts and/or have the ability to do this independantly so the transport needs to be addressed, first o all i would base this at the soon to be vacated fairford which has an advantage over brize by having 2 runways and space to house the movers currently at south cerney (sold off to generate funds). Brize could then house the chinooks as odiham is too small for the proposed 70 and (if this is a fantasy list i’llhave more anyway)!
Odiham sold, prime land cher ching! plus benson can go as well (after binning the puma) or used for returning unit from BAOR. keeping with the transport theme, people on here know me as a one trick pony i’ll repeat an earlier suggestion, look at getting the kawasaki xc-2 transport aircraft, several reasons, it can carry 37 tons like A400m it flies faster than C-17 (approx mach 0.8) this means it’s allowed in commercial airspace it’s tanker convertable as well, now another reason for this is the japanese have shortlisted the eurofighter so offer them some of the tranche aircraft as a swop/part exchange, I know the japanese have export bans but this is a weapons platform, and they are exporting a non military version.
The loss of eurofighter aircraft should be made up with a dedicated CAS aircraft so we can then train all the time not rely on other countries aircraft for air support and avoid tragic accidents. I would also use eads c-295′s for a variety of uses all discussed on other posts, suffice to say it’s a bit of overkill to use C130/A400m for loads of 10 tonnes or less.
So to summise, euro fighter/jsf (ha)! to gain or protect airspace, C-17 and xc-2 to airlift with the A400m and 295 for tactical lift with back up from chinooks (medium would be AW149 belonging to army air corp, thought i’d slip that in at the end). and aircraft of A-10esque like to act as close support for disembarked troops from the planes (or the ships that i don’t have the knowledge to talk about).
My longest ramble on here, and probably has more holes than a swiss cheese wrapped in a string vest, but that’s what i like about this site at least some one will give me good reason why.
Richard, it was never intended to be an ehaustive wish-list, it was just meant to be an example of the sort of equipment that we were short of and the missed opportunities / shortsighted bean conting that had reduced and in many cases eliminated key capabilities I will add more to the list at the end of this post or maybe later.
To answer Nicholas, I included the A400M as we are already committed to this and it might turn out to be a superb aircraft. I have no problem with dropping it in favour of more C130Js and C17s. I am also with Paulg you on the need for a intra-theatre transport aircraft. There are many the two that spring to my mind (over and above those mentioned) are the 146M and the C27J!
On the personal weapons front, anyone who has read my posts on this Blog and others, knows I am no fan of the SA80. That can be binned anytime you like. There are many weapons to choose from (e.g. FN2000, G36, HK416/417, Tavor etc..). Yes the 5.56 may have had its day. I believe that the 6.8mm round is being looked at. Maybe this could replace the 5.56 and 7.62 thus leaving the 8.59 (.338″) or 12.7mm (.50″)for the snipers and HMGs.
With regard to the Helicopters, yes we do appear to have too many types. I am not sure I agree that the Merlin is just a Navy type. It is a fine Helo and if properly configured (HH71) makes the perfect CSAR helicopter and would be ideal for the RMs. The Lynx wildcat is just the wrong size. In my view we need something smaller (MD500 / little bird size) and something Blackhawk size. Both Eurocopter and AugustaWestland have models that fit this bill. As I said earlier either a beefed up 139 or the new 149 fits the bigger Lynx replacement.
With regard to FRES utility, as I keep saying… I think Ranger is the answer. It is reported to being developed in 4×4, 6×6 AND 8×8.
back to the list:
Cv90 (no I would really want PUMA) but let’s be reasonable bought in very large numbers not juyst for FRES recce but to replace Warrior and Bulldog
Upgrade Challenger with new Engine/gearbox/gun and fire-control system
Upgrade AS90s to 52calibre gun with new autoloader and fire control to offer (MRSI)
Some form of Wheeled 155mm artillery (a M777 mounted on an Archer type chassis would be good
mobile air-defence (CAMM/Starstreak and AAA)
more C-RAM type weapons.
Dedicated Hospital ships (at least 2)
more and better landing craft viz:
BAE LCT (Landing Craft Tank)
PASCAT
Light armoured and armed hover craft
CB90s
12 Astute
12 of the German Hydrogen fuel cell type subs
Yes loads more RFA types
Dedicated CAS A10s yep have some of those, plus Tucano types, maybe even Hawks (Hawk 100 types)
Land based ABMs
Long Range bomber (could be based in Nimrod)
must go.. leader debate on
C, the sad reality for the FAA is that they have not been able to man any more than a composite Harrier squadron for ages, Joint Force Harrier was actually the best deal they could get and they should be thankful for that. Not wanting to belittle them but its the reality
I think I will create a post for flights of fancy wishlists
Speaking of flights of fancy, what’s the fascination with CV90?
250 x Spectrum Pursuit Vehicles
125 x Angel Interceptors
3 x CloudBase
24 x ThunderBird 2
12 x Stingray (SSN-small)
Mr.fred what’s wrong with the CV90? Its is (with the exception of the German Puma) one of the most modern and most capable AFVs in production. Its designed in Sweden (not a nation known for producing or buying sub-standard military equipment and is owned by a UK company.
Of the the two vehicles selected for FRES it actually exists.
The main issue I have with the CV90 is that it didn’t win the FRES SV contest. ASCOD exists as well, in a number of variants. The CV90 Recce displayed by BAE is a demonstrator only, not a production standard vehicle.
I have seen numerous posts across the internet and on this site that claim that the CV90 is better. I would like to know the basis for this claim, because it implies greater knowledge of the situation than I have been able to find myself.
3 Fleet Carriers
120 F35A’s
3 Arsenal Ships
12 SSN’s
3 SSGN’s
10 Light Carriers
50 CH53k’s
40 Apache
10 Heavy Landers
12 Frigates
12 Destroyers
30,000 Royal Marines incl armour support
And a partridge in a pear tree.
Enough to keep a “proper” strategic raiing force ready to roll
Mr.fred, not wanting to be picky…but ASCOD2 won the FRES recce contest not ASCOD! and therefore I am right in saying that ASCOD2 does NOT exist!
I don’t expect many on this or any other website has detailed knowledge of any of the vehicles, they are making informed decisions based on the data that is in the public domain.
CV90 has been purchased by several contries and is generally considered to be a very fine vehicle. ASCOD2 is a paper design and ASCOD has only been bought by Spain and Austria!
Now I am not knocking ASCOD2 purse, I just think we should buy a vehilce that is at least owned by a British company (provided it meets the requirements). CV90 due to being a more developed design should be in service quicker and this is supposed to be an urgent requirement!!!
As I say given a totally free choice, the PUMA is the far more advanced vehicle than either the CV90/ASCOD2, so why was that not selected. If we REALLY want the best, then this should have at least been short-listed.
C, with regard to your comment about ‘UK Armed Forces Plc’, I wrote this post a a while ago. I’ll add the link below in a blatant act of self promotion.
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2009/04/disjointed-command-the-future-of-warfare/
Admin, is it worth while having another tab at the top of the web page after Politics, Sea, Strategy etc and have the ‘Think Defence Virtual Forces’? Where commentators can suggest different equipment and come out with an ‘optimum’ kit list for each service arm. Is this plausible? Of course they would be some disagreement over exact types, but it may be tidier than having 20 different lists in the comments section.
Comments anyone?
I shall admit to being relatively new to the defence world and hence possibly nieve to think that three services which have the history and pride that the army/raf/rn do can play nice together in a single organisation.
I started reading this excellent blog as part of my education into defence and have just read your post Richard with which I basically agree.
Defence procurement would seem to be about balancing competing priorities, a task which is complicated by inter-service competition for resources which is why UK Armed Forces plc sounds like a good idea to me. PJHQ already runs everything on operations and in support of it in a very joint way, no competing priorities, just getting the job done, could this be expanded to encompass the whole of defence? I think it can with sufficient will. And I’m not talking about 3 commands under a unifying structure because we have that already, nor am i saying a USMC set-up necessarily. I’m advocating a completely new structure based around what we expect to do with our armed forces such as what Richard mentioned as Strategic and Tactical joint forces.
I’m pretty much near the limit of ny knowledge now so I’ll leave it there. Please feel free to disagree wholeheartedly with me
Concerning the rest of this post, I don’t believe that ASCOD2 would have been chosen on a whim, if it hadn’t been better than CV90 and enough so to negate the apparent lack of maturity of the design, what that may be I do not know but as i said I’m nieve enough to have faith. Secondly I’ve asked this question before but, whats so good about the Ranger vehicle? there must be a reason no ones bought it?
381-550 F-22As (for the USAF)
Erm! another list anyone? Apologies for any errors etc or general nuttyness:-)
Well this is my most likely slightly bonkers RAF aircraft fleet a fair bit less traditional fast jet orientated and a move towards supporting the wider armed forces and non-kinetic capabilities. I’ll give rough aircraft numbers for each type and some blurb as well as the most likely place that they would be based. Admittedly I’m no expert and done this mostly for the hell of it so I didn’t dig into what base would be most suitable for each aircraft type but I tried to keep major types together. Also the numbers may be a fair bit above what is currently planned however they are not completely bonkers and are what I think would be ideal for a well rounded RAF if more money was available or simply better spent.
•214 Eurofighter Typhoons in 5 Fighter Wings of 42 aircraft each and 3 squadrons of 14 aircraft per wing as well as a 4 aircraft flight based at MPA in the Falklands. Based at 5 main operating bases being Lossiemouth, Conningsby, Leeming, Marham and Leuchars strategically placed to provide facilities geographically closer to each other and providing optimum Air Defence cover.
•24 C-295 tactical transport aircraft for moving smaller loads under 10 tons around a theatre and for training the Airborne brigades in parachute drops saving money over using the A400M’s or C-17’s. Ideally based at one of the 2 main transports hubs or Boscombe down for proximity to Salisbury plain training area.
•50 A400M Transport and refuelling Aircraft organised into 8 squadrons of 6 aircraft. All aircraft based at RAF Lyneham in England allowing for Lyneham to be kept open keeping 2 main transport hubs. 50 aircraft are probably too many for a single base however 2 or more squadrons could be moved elsewhere such as to Boscombe down alongside the C-295’s. Refuelling equipment purchased to equip a large number of these aircraft to provide additional tactical tanking should it be needed in future. 1 Aircraft to be based in the Falklands to provide transport and tanking needs and 1 aircraft as a maintenance spare or training aircraft.
•12 C-17 Strategic Transport aircraft fully owned and operated by the RAF and not part of any PFI or NATO pooling arrangements unless extremely beneficial. All Based at RAF Brize Norton in England.
•6 Bombardier Global Express Business Jets for VIP transport of the Royal Family and Senior Politicians alongside an auxiliary role as a MEDEVAC aircraft when needed. Full Defensive Aids systems to be fitted to all aircraft alongside secure communications equipment for ministerial use. All aircraft to be based at RAF Northholt in England.
•24 A330-200 Tanker aircraft with full DAS and equipped with flying boom refuelling equipment and dual hose and drogue pods for flexibility. Large freight door also to be installed for palletised cargo and seating to be easily loaded and unloaded for operational flexibility. All based at RAF Brize Norton in England.
•6 A330-200 AWACS aircraft with extensive command and control systems installed to provide flying battle management alongside airborne UAV control. Designed to have commonality with 24 tanker aircraft in service to lower support costs and training crossover requirements. Based at RAF Waddington in England.
•18 Nimrod MRA4 Maritime patrol aircraft 12 original refurbished aircraft plus 6 additional new build aircraft equipped to carry Storm Shadow cruise missiles alongside standard original weapons. All aircraft based at RAF Kinloss in Scotland.
•6 Nimrod R1 SIGNIT/ELINT aircraft all new builds with extensive classified equipment fits and equipment to allow Airborne UAV control. All aircraft based at RAF Waddington in England.
•6 Sentinel R1 airborne surveillance aircraft plus 1 from current fleet of 5 aircraft, high degree of commonality with VIP transport aircraft for lower support costs and training crossover. All aircraft based at RAF Waddington in England.
•12 Shadow R1 aircraft these although maybe part of the AAC should be kept up to date for missions where any of the larger aircraft or UAV’s would be overkill and for working in theatre. All aircraft should be based at RAF Waddington in England.
•12 Northrop Grumman Global Hawk UAV’s for extreme endurance strategic intelligence gathering and communications relay. Explore the possibility of modular equipment fits for SIGNIT/ELINT as well as electronic attack or additional communications equipment. All aircraft to be based at RAF Waddington in England.
•36+ BAE Mantis UAV’s equipped for hunter killer role with reasonable weapons load of Paveway, Brimstone and a small diameter bomb counterpart. Various electronics pods should also be an option for jamming, various forms of electronic attack or for increased intelligence gathering beyond in build capabilities. All aircraft to be based at RAF Wittering or RAF Cottesmore in England.
•36+ Large Unmannned Stealthy Combat Aircraft such as an evolved BAE Taranis for long range deep penetration and SEAD/DEAD missions. All aircraft to be based at RAF Wittering or RAF Cottesmore in England.
•80+ BAE/Hawker Siddeley Hawk trainer aircraft evolved from the current aircraft in service with optional light armament for ASRAAM etc. Aircraft primarily based at RAF Valley in Wales.
I’ve not mentioned basic training aircraft such as Tucanos, gliders and other light aircraft as these are most likely going to be provided under a PFI agreement and are generally based all over the British Isles. Other things might also have been missed out that I’ve not remembered but it’s not meant to be intensely detailed just some random quick sketch of what I would like to see. Ideally advanced basic training in Tucanos, Super Tucanos or whatever is going to be employed in this role would be brought fully under RAF and FAA control however the current plans are for PFI. Basic training is something I think could be easily kept in the commercial sector as there is a healthy commercial pilot training industry so it should be cheaper to outsource basic flying training. All Rotary wing assets would be removed with support helicopters going over to the Army Air Corps who will be able to work closer with the ground component and SAR to the currently planned PFI arrangement.
Phil,
If we’re being picky, then the CV90 Recce put forward for the FRES SV only exists as a demonstrator, and is as alien to the CV90 in service as the ASCOD2 is to the ASCOD.
As for being British owned, you might recommend the Bradley on the same basis.
Finally, if it really was an urgent requirement, it shouldn’t be lumbered with the CT40.
Euan, a very interesting wish list but no Tornados? (not out of service until 2025), no Harriers or JSFs?, no C130Js? Why not? I know that you have said that you choice is a fair bit less traditional fast jet orientated but surely some of these aircraft could play a part?
Hey Mike, thanks for the questions.
The basic idea is to get rid of the Tonka toys as fast as possible and replace them with those Eurofighters as they are delivered so over the next 10 years they will be gone a bit earlier than 2025. I support the idea of an all Eurofighter fast jet fleet for all the reasons people have pointed to before here and elsewhere hence no other fast jet. The JSF if it works would be flown by the navy from the carriers which I support or I would simply ditch it and go for the cheaper Rafale or Super Hornet for normal CATOBAR. However I’m not a fan of the F-35 at this time as it’s going to be hugely expensive and even on a fantasy list I can’t really bring myself to justify waiting and paying for a questionable aircraft.
As for no C-130J’s well that is a Question mark in my own head as well but the current J models have been getting used at a very high rate doing tactical landings not exactly a nice easy life that was expected. They will still have plenty of life in them however I would like to move toward a common aircraft fleet based on the A400M if that aircraft proves itself well and lives up to the marketing by Airbus. The main question in my head is when do they actually need to be replaced or should be replaced? wait until, like the current K models, they are ready to fall out of the sky? I would like to see the older models replaced and then the J models straight after in a continuous stream of deliveries from airbus until we hit 50 Aircraft.
Euan, many thanks for the prompt reply. Your reasons seem very convincing ones, although the Tornado remains a pretty heavy old hammer and the VTOL Harrier could still prove invaluable in an intervention operation where there is no conventional airfield or runway available. Agree with you absolutely about the F-35.
Hello again,
The Tornado is indeed a good aircraft however there is nothing that they can do that the Eurofighter Tranche 3 won’t do better and things that they cannot do at all well that Eurofighter will be able to do. As for Harrier or VTOL in general I agree with that point however it’s a gap we can mitigate using things like carrier airpower, helicopters, loitering munitions and drones as well as advanced artillery such as missiles in a box. I would love to keep a VTOL aircraft ideally the Royal Marines would have some to fly from their LHA’s for organic air power but generally I don’t think it’s important enough to justify the cost.
How about all conventional for the airforce, all STOVL for the Navy?
That way the Navy can transfer to Austere facilities for the first part of the campaign until they are up to scratch enough for the RAF.
Here is a wish list.
How about an Anti-air warfare destroyer with functioning anti air missiles?
How about an interceptor with the long range missile that potentially gives it the edge over all other competitors?
How about a support helicopter that can fly in the area of operations with a functional load?
Perhaps I am being facetious but perhaps if the MOD just got the things they’ve already got working properly then it would be something to work off.
Dont come around here spouting your bloody common sense
Well said fromafar and welcome to thinkdefence
Hi, for Fromafar and everyone on the resolving of the afghanistan helo situation and Sea Viper. Defence procurement is getting a big kick in the butt now and recently with Drayson “at the helm” (seriously, he is). But that’s only one major problem with the managing in our country (we’re all to blame).
The following is recent and found via google.
The Chinook: “all of those 8 HC3 (long range) chinooks are expected to be “in service” by the end of 2010…The modifications (or “reversion” or refitting) have resulted in the aircraft receiving analogue cockpit displays and other equipment of a standard comparable to the RAF’s 38 Chinook HC2/2As.
“These (new) aircraft will be vital in helping us expand our ability to train our crews and to support operations,” adds Rear Adm Tony Johnstone-Burt, commander of the UK’s Joint Helicopter Command.”
Around 8 chinooks are in Afghanistan at the moment.
The Puma: “The new Puma engines will give 35 per cent more power and 25 per cent better fuel-efficiency than the existing engines…Twenty-eight Pumas, which can each carry up to 16 infantrymen, are to be updated with new and more powerful engines, new flight control equipment and modern cockpit and communications technology and the MOD has options to add two further aircraft to the programme. Deliveries are due to start in 2011 and the first 14 aircraft are planned to be in service by the end of 2012…enable the Puma to be deployed worldwide to meet the demands of the Armed Forces.
“This programme will provide the RAF with 28 helicopters (Pumas) that are able to meet the requirements of battlefield commanders to transport troops in the hottest and most demanding conditions that we encounter in Afghanistan. The upgrades amount to a significant capability enhancement for the aircraft.”
The Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton, said: “Today’s announcement confirms a significant uplift to the capability of Puma with more powerful engines and modern avionic and flight control systems to ensure it can operate effectively in the toughest conditions, including Afghanistan, for at least another decade.”
The Merlin: A Capability Sustainment Programme is currently in place to upgrade 30 Merlin HM1 to the HM2 standard. This will include a new mission system and digital cockpit. It had been planned to include the remaining 8 airframes but these will be refitted with equipment from the Sea King ASaC7 to become the MASC/AEW helos on the new carriers.
The RAF Merlin HC3 and HC3As will be moved to the Commando Helicopter Force replacing ‘junglie’ Sea King Commando helicopter. Five Merlin Mk3s are operating in Afghanistan now (?). The aircraft are now fully fitted with ballistic protection armour, and Im pretty sure new main rotor blades and more.
The Lynx: “12 of the Army Air Corps Lynx, based at Dishforth, North Yorkshire, are now being upgraded with the first deploying to Afghanistan in April. The aircraft will get more powerful engines, increased firepower and advanced instrumentation. An extra 10 Lynx helicopters are set to be upgraded and used in Afghanistan to support front-line troops. “The enhancements will allow it to perform in the extremes of climate and geography that characterise that theatre of operations.”
AW159 (Future Lynx) Wildcat: £1 billion contract
for 62 AW159 light helicopters . with 34 for the British Army and 28 for the Royal Navy and enter service with the Army in 2014 and with the RN in 2015. 98% common(ality) in airframe and system design.. Initial deliveries of the type expected in 2011.
There’s 8 apaches in A’stan and much more…
In May ’08 the MOD began an examination of the equipment programme and in Dec ’08 announced a big package of measures. So the Labour gov did finally increase their helo spending rather than reducing it as Brown admitted.
About the Sea Viper: From http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/Mystery-of-missile-test-failure.6200243.jp
02 April 2010 by defence correspondent
“Mystery of missile test failure solved for new destroyers but an investigation into the firing off the south coast of France found that it was a design flaw with the Aster missiles – rather than a problem with the launcher or control system. The missiles are now being redesigned…
MoD spokeswoman said: “Some production weaknesses in the most recent batches of the Aster missile have been identified and these are being corrected through minor re-design work.”
There has been litle “informed” (sorry) comment on all of the above developments. Sorry if this comment is all really old news to you all. I’ll try not to post tedious posts.
Dominic I’m thinking along the lines of using the carriers to provide the air support and as soon as the ground forces capture and airport the RAF can switch to providing the air support. I would point out again that I want traditional carriers so the RN would have ‘conventional’ aircraft as well and there would be no STOVL. There would also be UAV’s and UCAV’s providing loitering support if a base can be found for them in a neighbouring nation or if they are in range of Ascension, Cyprus etc. I would note that getting basing permission is more likely for UAV’s and UCAV’s than for really noisy and highly visible fast jet aircraft well that’s what I think anyway. That of course relies upon an Airport being available to be captured in the first place but failing that the carrier would simply have to rotate out or stay for an extended period. Any ideas how long it would take for runway to be constructed by engineers and heavy equipment I would imagine a few weeks for basic operational capability.
However the point in Strategic Raiding is not to be around for long it’s a raid after all and a carrier can stay on station for months so anything longer than that cannot be called raid by any stretch of the imagination. If we found reason to stay much longer it’s unlikely we would be alone unless of course we wanted to start building the new British Empire or something like that?
Fromafar I couldn’t agree more it would be nice to get things we already have working properly speaking of which have those Chinooks made it out of the country??
Hi, sorry about my inability to structure my posts well!!
Euan, I havent seen any mention anywhere of those 2 new HC3 chinooks being airlifted to A’stan, or a delivery of more HC3s. The first 2 were delivered in December, so maybe they should’ve been by now, and be working up over there now.
I would like the FDR to produce a focus on developing exportable hi-tech UK products. The amount of current international naval/coast guard vessel construction programmes is absolutely enormous, we must tap into that. The helicopter market, especially commercial, is projected to be enormous, as well and we only really have Agusta Westland in the west country, not doing nearly as much as it possibly could. Will it sell more (sales per year) of it’s wide range of helos and it’s new tilt-rotor. Can they(?) do another international NFH-90 -like collaboration soon?
Let’s make hi-tech products, that’s our major asset in this country, technical/scientific excellence. We don’t do food production, we’re not that efficient and therefore productive, tourism is small, as is commodity and product export. Our community aspect is very poor, lifestyle, mental health, health. It works out now that there is one new law every day under Labour. What we’re doing in the EU is not working for us.
I know what I’ve just said is irrelevant to “wish lists” but it is very much relevant to the political FDR. cheers
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Anyone fancy seeing a more realistic ideal?
RN:
- 2 QE Class carriers (Cat & Trap)
- 2 Albion class LPD
- 2 LPH(R) looking more to the future to maintain 4 aviation capable vessels, 220~230m, 25,000T+, ~800+600 RM, 6x LCVP, NO WELL DOCK!
- 8~10 T45 Destroyer (64 VLS silos, ABM/ASAT Capability [Aster ABM? SM-3? it makes little difference] and CIWS fitted [RAM])
- 8 C.1 Frigate (48 VLS [Quadpacked CAMM, NAVAL SCALP] Artisan, T2087 TAS, Hull mounted sonar, 2x Merlin HM.2, ~145m, ~7,000T, Mk.8/155mm Mk.8, 2x RAM, 8x Harpoon)
- 14~16 C.2 Frigate (8 cell VLS [Quadpacked CAMM], Artisan, Mk.8/155mm Mk.8, 2x RAM, 8x Harpoon 1x Merlin/2x AW149/multiple UAV, ~125m, 4,000~4,500T, Stern ramp/mission deck [containerised mission modules such as MCM]
- 8 Astute class submarines, unfortunately it will be impossible to build more than 8 before the Vanguard replacements take priority, I’d much rather see 10 though!
- 4 Vanguard replacement SSBN
C3 is long enough away not to need to worry, River class, Echo class etc. are new and the MCMVs have plenty of life left in them yet!
~138 F-35C Lightning, rather than JFL all assets will be FAA and the RAF will lose out, it’s a thoroughly stupid idea to expect the RAF to operate from the carriers anyway
- 44 Merlin HM.2 (only 30 are scheduled to be upgraded
- 50~60 AW-149 (in place of Sea FLYNX/Wildcat)
- 38 Merlin HC.3 to replace CHF Sea Kings (ex-RAF)
- 8 E-2D Hawkeye
- Re-Raise 4-1 CDO.
RAF:
- 232 Typhoons to arm 8 Squadrons rather than 7…
- 8 Frontline Mk.4 Tornado Squadrons
- 21 Nimrod Mk.4
- 3 Nimrod R.1 … the R1 can probably soldier on to 2025+ without problems, they’ve had quiet lives!
- 5 Sentinel Mk.1
- 7~8 Shadow Mk.1 (AMAZING ISR Asset, 3-4 more isn’t going to hurt)
- 7 Sentry Mk.1 they stll have plenty of life left yet!
- 16~18 A330 MRRT (I think 14 is a couple too short or it would be if the RAF was at full strength, purchased outright)
- 10~14 Globemasters
- 25 A400M
- 24 Hercules Mk.4/5 (already in inventory)
- 84~86 Chinook
- ~30 AW149 (Puma Replacement, possibly transfer to Army command in order to leave the RAF with only the heavy kit)
If our septic friends look at producing a 130J based Gunship then 3~5 should be put on order, it’d be a useful asset but only if the septics take on development costs.
not a fan of dedicated COIN A/C such as SuperTuc or OV-10 more ISR aircraft and front-line fighters are preferable
Army:
-increase regular numbers to 122~128,000 including raising a Sikh infantry regiment and re-raising a parachute battalion (10PARA?).
-CV90 as FRES SV
-take options for a further Panther Vehicles (Another incredibly useful asset, even at £400,000 each)
- scrap FLYNX/Wildcat in place of AW149 (increased order of ~60 separate of RAF puma replacements)
- ~25 Light, armed helicopters, (AH-6S?)
I do appreciate this represents a 15~20% increase in spending, which is modest compared to most of your fantasies!
I left lots of blanks and didn’t cover RFA etc.. this takes too much time to write and I get far too carried away!
Alex nice list indeed I agree with the 2 LPH’s I’m being overly enthusiastic when I think of 4 but I’m thinking and budgeting for Strategic Raiding alongside an extra 1% of GDP on defence. As for the frigates I would swap some of the C2’s to become C1’s minimum number of C1’s for me is 12 and the C2 would be Absalon derived. (Discussed extensively by me and Jed as well as info in a post be Jed) C3 is in the medium term in my opinion as the Hunt class MCM vessels are around 20-30 years old so will need replaced at some point I would imagine, although they are made from GRP so might last longer.
FAA wise I think 138 is a bit too much maybe around 100 or less which allows for 2 air wings as well as additional aircraft for training and conversion purposes. The Wildcat I think has had too much money put into it and is too far along for my liking to just ditch it I would just give them all to the RN or try and sell some. As for the RAF thumbs up apart from a few points I think all rotary assets should be getting bumped into the AAC for them to fly and pay for as the Chinooks are there to support the Army. Eurofighter what sizes are your squadrons? A squadron to me is between 12-18 aircraft I went for 14 in my list and also went for a lower total number of operational aircraft albeit with no dedicated OCU.
Army wise I never covered it as I’m not really that knowledgeable about army politics and structures compared to other folk so I left it alone when dreaming. Increasing the size of the Army is a good point it could do with bulking up manpower wise but a Sikh Infantry Regiment sounds a bit odd although I think I can see why. The Panther vehicle is something that has received quite a bit of stick from people due to the room in the back and the protection it offers I would stick with the LPPV variants. As for light scout helicopters that is what Wildcat was meant to do so I’m confused on that but more Apaches would be an option as they have proved useful in counterinsurgency warfare alongside a fleet upgrade to Block 3.
Euan, 138 aircraft is roughly what is needed to maintain a frontline force of ~80 aircraft taking into account deep fleet and training units…
the RN is in no real need for more well docks even if force size increases, this would be better met by more Bay class docks in the RFA, an LPH of Mistrals size would be able to transport far more boots to the shore by not wasting space with a well dock and more extensive vehicle decks (also remember that a 2nd LPH is justifiable as both Vince class and QE class double up as LPH/carriers when required
Wildcat… too small to adequately lug boots and kit around in the battlefield support role, too big for the scout role, she’s useless… She might’ve had a great deal of money spent on her but buying 70+ units at £28m each of something that isn’t needed is wasting yet more money as for more Apaches I think the AAC has enough.
Absalon is great for the RDN however it’s not for the RN, Diesel power, storage decks/RoRo that just isn’t necessary for a force that can afford separate logistic assets, DCNS FM400 is closer to the mark to C.2 in my opinion (close but no cigar, it gives an slight insight into my train of thought though)
C.1/T26… 8 will suffice, there are only 8 T2087 TAS systems, no more will be made, in reality and the RN doesn’t need any more, 1 more T26 comes at the expense of 2 C2s (T83?), the RN is no longer required to be top heavy in ASW assets
Typhoon Squadron numbers are using a figure of 15, I’d say that to fully arm 9 squadrons of 15 ~240 aircraft would be required taking into account training and the deep fleet by having a larger pool of aircraft the type will remain in service for longer!
Hunt class.. the Ton class served a much more intensive life and some managed 40 years… as much as they maybe 30 years old or approaching that figure they’re still in great material condition
Panther has a valid place in the army, protection is enough for perceived environment, LPPV and Panther are very different assets, LPPV isn’t procurable in enough numbers to be considered capable to supplant panther and it makes no difference what vehicle is bought armour WILL be defeated by an IED…
Sikh units served the British empire well during the Raj and have been an amazing force in the Indian army, there is limited support for such a unit in the UK because the equalities commission shook their heads but there are enough Sikhs in the UK to warrant it.