Look like thats it then
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- Another Look at Pluto
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- The Future of the British Army – Dismounted Close Combat
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20 Comments
Well it was the Financial Times that reported it. It has a rather well earned reputation.
Also “”value for money”". GD bid cheaper.
What was that quote? “Never forget your weapon was produced by the lowest bidder”
BAE systems must feel like giving up on the UK – they are just a political whipping boy of defence.
Cheap does not equal best – paper design, yet to be tested, another MoD faux pas ???
Lets hope it all turns out well !
Another page linked from the one you depict, states, in best possible Welsh accent:
“Mr Hain said: “Today’s announcement is a win, win for Wales.
“This contract, worth almost £400m to the supply chain in Wales, will create 200 more highly skilled engineering jobs in south-east Wales and safeguard another 250 existing Welsh jobs.”
Well, that’s lovely then boyos ! Shame the Welsh Guards aren’t a Force Reconnaissance Regiment :-)
I’m echoing a comment made previously about this contest, I have no problem with ASCOD winning if its better but can anyone identify what makes it better
I’ve heard its cheaper and that its got more growth potential, has anyone got anything else?
I am very confused by this whole business.
Is it not true that this contract will come under scrutiny once the defence review gets started? It is not also true that there is a very high possibility of it being cancelled outright?
I simply do not understand the dynamics of this deal; sure they are given a contract but there is nothing to stop the Tories from cancelling it surely, given that is what the defence review recommends?
Jed,
Did you know that the Welsh Guards did indeed used to be a Force Reconnaissance Regiment? The 2nd Battalion was the Guards Armoured Division’s armoured recce regiment from D-Day to the end of hostilities. A very fine job they did too.
That said, however, as good as the ASCOD may be for Wales today, I’m not convinced that it’s the best choice for the British Army tomorrow. How good this vehicle is or isn’t may not matter.
I suspect that the reason it has been chosen above the CV90 is because the ASCOD needs more further development than the BAE contender. Once labour has won the election, the longer lead time will provide scope to cancel the contract should some unforeseen event force the price to be increased, just as GD’s preferred bidder status for the FRES Utility Vehicle was rescinded for the same reason.
I see this as political posturing not real defence policy in action. Why else the rush to appoint a bidder just before the election?
Makes me very cynical.
Well it would appear that the mod might not want the vehicles when they originally said. The latest unconfirmed rumour is that the BAE bid was for an in service date in 2015 and the GD in service date is early 2019. This would make sense as to how GD was able to offer a potentially compliant solution based on a pile of paper and no, very little, hard evidence.
In the next few days and weeks we will have to see if this rumour comes to fruition.
Nicholas – I was not aware of that particular piece of history – thank you :-)
As for being cynical old chap – well, joint the rest of us !
Fiale – save your sympathies for BAE Systems, or at least just for the workers. In the past BAE have threatened to pull out of the UK altogether unless the Government gave them ‘guaranteed funding streams’.
Perhaps the Government is sick of getting bitch-slapped by major defence companies and this is their way of sticking two rods up at them, who knows?
Nicholas, could rushing a contract before an election help guarantee a directorship for an MP/minister should he lose his seat?
MARK II
I am very confused by this whole business.
Is it not true that this contract will come under scrutiny once the defence review gets started? It is not also true that there is a very high possibility of it being cancelled outright?
I simply do not understand the dynamics of this deal; sure they are given a contract but there is nothing to stop the Tories from cancelling it surely, given that is what the defence review recommends?
this is a win win for wales, that’ll be south wales, again bastard welsh assembly looking after the south again, however as much as i like to see BAe getting a snotting to keep them in their place it’s not good to see 500 guys lose their jobs, jobs that BAe backed down and promised to keep, still 2015 or 2019 if we are still in sandy places then that’s 4 years of equipment not in theatre, good work bean counters, saved pounds, lost lives!!
rant over
Several things spring to mind here. ASCOD2 is not a paper design, the version that is for FRES SV is so we are being a little unfair on GD here.
The running gear looks to be very impressive. The gearbox is the same as fitted to the German PUMA, arguably the best IFV in the market, not that the minister on the BBC seems to think so. Also the engine is an MTU lump that develops in excess og 800hp, which is way more than the 650 for the scania engine in the CV90. By not shortening the vehicle for the FRES SV version they have the advantage that the standard hull can do all the other FRES support roles.
Having said all that I was a supported of the CV90 and think BAE will now completely turn its back on the UK and who can blame it.
I cannot help but think this is a sweetener to get GD back onside to allow UK to own the design for Piranha V, which the generals having been having orgasms over for years.
All of that said the Tories will probably reverse the decision anyway, so could be a total non-story in the end anyway.
Phil,
This is what I am trying to get to the bottom off: what cancelation clauses are attached to this contract? Is it even possible to cancel it, or is it just cheaper to build the damn thing and be done with it?
as commented on in another post by jed (and me) still think look further than afghan and use fennek as well with this bit like recce in germany in the 80′s had cvrt and ferret scout car it’s agood bit of kit and could be used just ahead of the fres scout don’t forget UAV’s still need to bugger off for refuel/rearm and can’t park up, and it doesn’t matter if the weather is pants at 0 feet!!!
gemans although in the north are deploying them in sandy places and they are the risk assesment gods
Paul, In response to your comments about keeping GD onside to get access to Piranha designs.
I think the mod did well to get out of the Piranha UV hole they dug, GD did the same thing then as well. Appeared to offer the world and then wouldn’t sign up to their original offer. I believe the UV trials of truth used a dusted off Piranha IV with some relatively minor mods, no role modules just a solid rear cab. GD hadnt put a representative demo vehicle together that time either.
also, do we really want it? Remember the Piranha vehicle is essentially of old design and has had a rather chequered past.
[Piranha = Lav = Stryker]
Check out the following links, unfortunately the first one has some silly music that you apparently can’t turn off. (word of warning, these links are somewhat one-sided and old but do point out some issues with the earlier versions of these wheels)
http://www.combatreform.org/strykerhorrors.htm
http://www.g2mil.com/LAV-III.htm
http://www.combatreform.org/lavdanger2.htm
vimeo.com/92018
Considering America still has it on their books are can’t imagine there is even a remote possibility that GD will a)want to hand over the design b) be allowed to. ITAR rules all.
This is a reasonable article on wheels versus tracks.
http://www.dodbuzz.com/2009/06/29/wheels-vs-tracks-redux/
You would have thought that by now a tracked vehicle could be designed that encompasses the advantages of wheels.
Phil Darley,
small correction: Puma has the Renk HSWL 256 transmission. Ulan / ASCOD 2 has the Renk HSWL 106C3. The engine is a 720hp MTU 8V199 TE20.
Piranha V: MTU 6V199 TE20 with a ZF transmission. MAN trucks: MAN diesel with ZF transmission
Ranger PPV: MAN diesel
Now, to achieve even greater commonality, we could also upgrade Challenger 2 (and all the support vehicles based on it) with the EuroPowerPack (MTU MT 883 engine and Renk HSWL 295 TM transmission), just like it was done for the Challenger 2E.
Just some food for thought…
Very interesting comments. Can anyone enlighten me more fully as to why the FRES UV Piranha V was cancelled. I thought it was for three reasons, but there is a distinct lack of info on this:
1. GD wouldn’t share ownership of design with UK
2. Unit cost rose by 20-30%
3. Desired level of protection would have compromised mobility
As Phil says, it is an old design. What do we think of the Boxer? Would it be a better alternative?
Going back to FRES Scout Vehicle needs, would we be better off with the Puma IFV?
There’s been mention of Boxer, Puma and Fennek. These vehicles are all made by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann. They make excellent kit, so i guess the sooner we enter into some kind of partnership with them the better, no? I can’t see who else will partner with us when the time comes to replace Challenger 2.
rob hope you don’t mean me with regards to piranha i don’t want it!!! I would like to see fennek in the ferret scout car role operating just ahead or controlling 2/3 fres scouts (those sneaky 42 ton machines)!! and boxers in conjunction with tracks ie upgraded warrior and also let our boffins run riot with the module part of the boxer (and possibily ocelot) and come up with different ideas rather than the bog standard cmmmd/ambulance/troop carrier. Who knows might even come up with a mordern equivelent my old cvr(T) favourite, swingfire and defo upgrade the mechs on the chally oh well time to put away the sandbag and steady the lamp!!!
Nicholas, I have been an admirer of German Army vehicles for a long time. In terms of engines and running gear they seem to be way ahead of the competition. With regard to the Fennek, this is more of a scout vehicle than a recce. Vehicle; as such it is not meant to engage with then enemy in the way a recce vehicle would. In that regard it would have been a far better vehicle than the Iveco MLV Panther (Which should be renamed GINGER TOM!!!)in my opinion. I did ask the MoD why they had not short-listed the Fennek and was told that KMW had not submitted the design for consideration. Neither was the MLV but that did not stop the MoD asking it to be submitted at the last minute!!!!
With regard to BOXER I was and remain a big fan. I understand that there were concerns about the removable module design and the fact that it added to the already considerable weight of the vehicle. The vehicle is in fact massive, due partly to the German Army requirement not to have their kit strapped on the outside like a gypsy caravan, a custom that us Brits seem to relish. It was a very well thought out design and had good mine and balistic protection built in to the design, although probably not to the same level as a dedicated MRAP. Of the 3 vehicles short-listed in the “Trials for truth” it had the best hp/tonne ratio and the longest range and was probably the most complete of the designs, the Piranha V was represented by Piranha IV as V was a paper design unique to the UK.
As I said in an earlier post I am not convinced we need a wheeled vehicle that is 34+ tonnes, so we may have been let off the hook with the FRES UV as I think we need something different for the medium weight forces (more like SEP).
It still remains if this or any order we actually see the light of day. If we really are broke and care more about funding illegal immigrants and single parents then none of these much needed but in political terms “shiny toys” will be canned…