FDR – Maritime Futures – part 2 the Submarine Fleet

So in the last instalment written for Think Defence as part of the FDR series I concentrated on the surface fleet. By comparison the submarine service is easier to discuss, yet more contentious; because I am going to include discussion of the nuclear deterrent.

SSN fleet

As is well known the the SSN fleet will shrink to 7 with the delivery of the Astute class boats.

I would argue that if we give up the carriers and their expensive F35 JCA air group we should invest in an 8th boat, because the Astute’s with their Tomahawk cruise missiles become our strategic land attack force, which we can stealthily position to ‘reach out and touch’ anyone who annoys us!

This number has dropped drastically from 29 boats in 1990 (including conventional diesel-electric boats) to 12 in 1997 to the current projected force level of 7.

Although BAe ran into issues with the design and build of the Astute class, leading them to be over budget and late, they are apparently very good subs. I would invest a little in making the last 4 of 8 a little longer and incorporating VLS cells (between the pressure and external hull as on USN SSNs). This has apparently already been investigated, and although I can see why they did not progress with this, adding additional cost to the programme, as these now become our primary force projection asset, it might be a good idea.

I don’t think I really need to defend the number of 8 all that much.

SSN’s are the primary ASW platform in wartime, and peace time can be used to clandestinely keep an eye on the prospective enemies submarine movements. They are superlative intelligence gathering asset and a delivery vehicle for special forces (SBS). Of course they are also an Anti-ship platform too, and although the RN no longer ships sub-Harpoon, the SpearFish torpedo, like any modern large calibre torpedo is a fearsome anti-ship weapon – just search for “sinkex” on YouTube!

However, they are rather large and costly, so fitting a small precision weapon such as the German-Norwegian Triton fibre-optic guided missile might be a good idea for ‘operations other than war’.

In truth we could probably do with more boats, but in the current financial climate there is no way we are getting more than 8.

For lots of good info on the Astute programme see the Navy Matters page at:

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/astute.htm

SSBN fleet

Apparently the current SSBN’s were built with a quite finite useful life, as there is no current discussion about life extension, but plenty of discussion about replacement, and whether we could make do with 3 ‘bombers’ instead of 4.

This is where things get contentious because we are talking about the future of the nuclear deterrent. There are many arguments that say what we spend on the independent nuclear deterrent is not all that much in the big picture , and that it is money well spent. Of course counter arguments exist that it is wasted money with no relevance to the global war on terror.

I am going to take a position in the middle, and suggested a much simplified and cheaper deterrent force.

However first, let us examine the threat.

Of course I do not posses the skills of Nostradamus, nor are my balls crystal, but I think its safe to say that neither the USA or France should be considered a nuclear threat. Nor personally do I think China is. If they nuke us, who is going to buy all their stuff ?

See, we can thank globalisation for something !

The same argument applies to Russia, although Putin seems to verge on lunacy at times, again if they nuke us, we can’t pay them all that lovely hard currency for their natural gas can we !

There are many reasons why I don’t think we have to deter India or Israel either. Nor Pakistan at the moment, but how secure are their weapons ?

And so that leads us into the real debate. What good is a SLBM with a reduced payload of ‘tactical’ optimized Nuclear warheads against non-state actors ? Or for that matter even against Iran or North Korea. Do we really think that if the Great Leader, or the ‘Great Lunatic’ (in Tehran) wanted to nuke us, that they would do it be easily identified missile launches from their own countries ?

No, seriously……

They would use / pay proxies, and the simplest way to nuke the UK would be to sail a crude dirty bomb into London, Hull or Liverpool on a merchant ship. Or maybe manage to get the bits into the country via the same route and take out Bradford. You can easily imagine all the global jihad organisations like AQ throwing up their arms in shock at the suggestion that they had blown up a large amount of the UK Muslim population…….

So, the unthinkable has happened, now who do we rain down our devastating SLBM delivered atomic revenge upon ? Mmmm’ thats right, the deterrent has not deterred and we can’t go throwing around ballistic missiles in this scenario.

In fact that defence against this scenario is a decent Coast Guard, an armed Border Police force and a well funded and competent intelligence service.

However, as is often pointed out to those who suggest dismantling the deterrent capability, these are todays threats, and new threats may materialize in the future. Yes thats true, and Britain could have good politicians and once again become the centre of innovation for the whole world, but don’t hold your breath……..

If you followed my link above the Navy Matters page on the Astute programme, at the very bottom of the page you will see that two variants of the Astute have been suggested as replacements for the current ‘bombers’ – one with 16 VLS cells for nuclear cruise missiles, and one with an extended sail structure with silos for 4 SLBM’s.

Despite the fact that you will all shout at me that they are easier to shoot down, etc etc I personally would go with the VLS and nuclear armed cruise missiles – but I expect plenty of discussion on this point ! Of course we could give up the ‘independent’ deterrent all together, but then what about our much vaunted seat on the worthless institution that is the UN Security Council………..

Nuclear and submarine building industry

We have discussed before on Think Defence the link to shrinking of the armed forces below a ‘critical mass’ to the retention of industrial design and manufacturing abilities. The fact that the Astute programme ran into difficulties which resulted in the most U.S. content in a British submarine class since the 1960′s is a direct result of the government not keeping up the ‘drum beat’ of orders, allowing knowledge, experience and expertise to be lost at Vospers at Barrow in Furness.

The state of the budget, the resolve of the politicos and lack of orders in the past, does not bode well for the future. Really it is time to come and clean and admit that we can’t / don’t want to pay to retain this expertise anymore, and in future we will buy our SSN’s from the U.S. or from France, or at least take their designs, add enough UK content to bump up the price (like a different sonar or torpedos) and licence build the boats in Barrow.

If we are going to be really cheap skate in the future, perhaps we should be buying AIP powered conventional patrol submarines instead?

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8 Comments

  1. DominicJ says:

    In the event of a proxy tactical strike against the UK, I’d have no problems ordering a strategic retaliation against the paymaster, and if I couldn’t work out who, the best four guesses.
    Anything is a day late and dollar short.

    That said, I also wouldn’t mind if we spead the current trident missiles across 12 Astutes instead of 4 Vanguards, even if we had slightly fewer warheads out and about at any one time. India might like to boast it can survive Pakistans best case scenario of 500m dead Indians, and, 500m Indians would survive, but “India” wouldnt.
    It would be utterly unable to maintain order if we hit 30 key targets with nuclear weapons, never mind defend its borders against China and Pakistan.

    However, even if I can accept Astute carrying Ballistic Missiles, I just cannot agree with cruise missiles as a delivery mechanism, they simply are not effective enough, they can be shot down, fighter pilots could suicide ram them, we cant guarantee to hold up our end of mutual destruction.
    The nuclear deterrent has got to be an unstoppable barrage that can destroy the ability of any nation to function as a nation.
    Anything less, and the enemy could decide that actually, its worth it.

  2. Jed says:

    Dominic, I understand your point, but you help make mine for me:

    “The nuclear deterrent has got to be an unstoppable barrage that can destroy the ability of any nation to function as a nation.”

    I ask again, what NATION is currently a realistic nuclear threat ? Which leads to my other question / point – what value is an SLBM against an amorphous ‘terrorist’ organization (aka ‘non-state actor’) because you may start global nuclear war by taking out the “four best guesses” but non of our politicians ever would.

  3. “In truth we could probably do with more boats, but in the current financial climate there is no way we are getting more than 8.”

    Very true! And 8 nuke subs aren’t bad in the absence of a Soviet threat. This is an amazing capability on a single class warship, giving virtually unlimited cruising power and speed to a weapon that almost won the last 2 world wars single handily.

    Now time to build numbers with some AIP subs!

  4. Jed says:

    So what do we think, does Mike B have a point ? Is there a role for top of the range, smaller (than Astute) AIP powered sub in our fleet ?

    what if we could get 3 for the price of an 8th Astute class ???

  5. 13th Spitfire says:

    You say that we might possibly, perhaps, order our subs in the future from the French. But what evidence is there that their nuclear sub capability is not going to the dogs as well?

  6. IPFreely says:

    Why would you wan to buy your nuclear submarines from US or France?

    That is short sighted stance that has lead to current situation. Once you lose your skilled engineers and scientists, you will forever be step behind everyone.

    There has been lot of yammering about buying off the shelf from other countries… Once you start that road you are putting youself behind technologically.

    That’s being pennywise and pound foolish. If you are going to spend money spend it on what you can produce nationally not France, not Germany and not US.

    France would love to have billions of UK euros flowing through their economy.

    So what if it cost 1.5x more to build it nationally? Money spent is investment on your own people and your own industry.

  7. Jed says:

    IPFreely – actually I agree with you BUT I wonder if we are past the tipping point. A defence industrial policy only makes sense with a defence budget of a certain size, if you loose ‘critical mass’ to use a nuclear analogy you fail on the cost benefit analysis.

    So, continuing to play devils advocate here….

    How much is the UK tax payer prepared to pay in order to keep that engineering skill in the UK ? If the general populace don’t care if we have SSN’s or not – then they will not care about specialist engineering jobs in Barrow in Furness.

  8. Euan says:

    Hmmmm! Submarines the big driver for the size of the submarine force is keeping the industry kicking as I think we partly learned the lesson with the astute class submarines. I am already pretty much set on thinking that 8 attack submarines is the minimum force level that is worth it below that and it’s questionable. 8 attack subs gives you optimistically 3-4 boats on patrol at all times with a 50+% utilisation rate in peacetime most likely higher and peaking much higher at times. The problem would come if you needed to deploy a surface group against someone with a sub capability or with a decent surface fleet those subs would be needed.

    I think the possibility of new SSK’s should be explored in addition to a base fleet of 8 SSN’s for patrol tasking closer to home or abroad when shore facilities are available. However a tiny fleet of SSK’s would be stupid as the cost per unit would be high both in purchase and support costs so a fleet size at least the same of the SSN’s would be advisable. We could either buy SSK’s from abroad or license build them here or an option could be to cooperate with Australia when they get moving with the Collins class replacement although design only no bloody industrial quagmire. Another option that has more risk in it is a UK designed and built submarine along the lines of the BMT Vidar 36 Design starting with one as a prototype and trial unit. If we moved fast enough built it and it worked we might actually sell some to Australia or others looking for an ocean going diesel electric sub with longer legs although the market is small it’s growing. The only other nation that really produces subs in that category is Japan which has an export ban on weapons, other diesel subs are generally not open ocean submarines and stick to coasts. However this is all pretty much fantasy land and is unlikely to happen although some may see the sense in doing it the politicians won’t and I don’t think the RN would risk losing SSN numbers.

    The whole nuclear debate is a quagmire with various conflicting opinions facts and positions on all sides even those in each camp cannot agree fully with each other. We really should have a long hard look at our choices and our future as a nation and I’m not just talking about a deterrent here, then we should decide what action to take. If we continue down the current road we will have no need for either a deterrent or armed forces within a decade or two and I don’t see this changing soon enough. In the short term my own personal opinion is that for the immediate future we should keep a survivable and credible nuclear deterrent which means to me ballistic missiles launched from submarines.

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